Who thinks nazi's are awesome?

[Death]

You and Peace have completely missed or ignored my point, so I will not pursue this debate any further. I know everything you just said, and it's completely unrelated to what I said.

[Gen. Volkov]

I understand what you said, but my point was that your friends who call themselves Nazi's are not in fact Nazi's. The core principle in Nazism is that Jews are bad. If you don't believe this, you are not a Nazi, and merely just someone who is German and proud of various German accomplishments.

[Death]

You know what, you seem like a smart, reasonable guy, so I'll actually go back on what I said.

Everywhere I have been, the definition of "Nazi" has become more broad. Just like "gay" has changed, just not to as much of an extent.

I am not saying that by definition Nazi does not have anything to do with persecution based on race, I am simply saying that every person who calls themselves a Nazi or are considered a Nazi by people is not a racist.

Just a simple observation. I do not consider those people Nazis because I typically go by definition, but they are considered Nazis by their peers and themselves. I just think it was worth mentioning in passing, because so many people hear the word Nazi and think "OMFG RACIST, YOU GO TO [haties] AND YOU DIE!"

So yes you did miss my point, but that may have been my fault as it's 3:06am and I am not exactly all here. I feel like I'm forgetting to mention something.

[Gen. Volkov]

So yes you did miss my point, but that may have been my fault as it's 3:06am and I am not exactly all here. I feel like I'm forgetting to mention something.

Very well, I guess I did miss the mark a bit. Of course I'm not all here either, as I'm mildly intoxicated and it's 3:30 AM.

I am not saying that by definition Nazi does not have anything to do with persecution based on race, I am simply saying that every person who calls themselves a Nazi or are considered a Nazi by people is not a racist.

I do understand now, but honestly, I would not think very highly of those people's intelligence. In my opinion, there just isn't anything there to be proud of that is not heavily outweighed by the horrible things the Nazi's did. The jet powered aircraft, Tiger tanks, blitzkrieg tactics, and whatever else simply do not make up for attempted genocide or plunging the world into the deadliest war in history. So I can understand calling oneself a Nazi and not be racist on the basis of pride or whatever, but I still don't understand what precisely they are proud of.

Just a simple observation. I do not consider those people Nazis because I typically go by definition, but they are considered Nazis by their peers and themselves. I just think it was worth mentioning in passing, because so many people hear the word Nazi and think "OMFG RACIST, YOU GO TO [haties] AND YOU DIE!"

Very well then. I will still continue to have something like that reaction though. Less out of the fact that Nazi's are racist, and more because of the sad history of what those evil bastards did. If I ever meet someone who claims to be Nazi but not be racist, I will first quiz them on their knowledge of the history of that time. Depending on how much they know, I will either ignore them as an ignorant moron or proceed to punch their lights out. Cause honestly, my grandfather, great-grandfather, and cousin did not fight those bastards just so a bunch of pricks back here at home could start calling themselves Nazis 60 years later. I really don't much care about the racist angle though. That's not really what offends me about the Nazis.

Everywhere I have been, the definition of "Nazi" has become more broad. Just like "gay" has changed, just not to as much of an extent.

Well, I had not heard this. Interesting, but it's not something I really like. It shows that we are forgetting history. This is not a good thing, because as the quote goes, "those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it". However, I am choosing to stick with the more strict definition of Nazi, as while I do think they accomplished some astounding things, I don't think there is much admirable there. There is much to be proud of in German history, but the Nazi era is simply not one of the more proud chapters. Whatever upside the Nazi's had is just too heavily outweighed by their downsides.

[Peace Alliance]

"soup nazi" from Seinfeld wasn't actually racist.

The title is applied jokingly however (obviously, Seinfeld being the most jewish show on TV!). If your friends are applying the title as a joke, then... then well that just plain doesn't count then does it!

[Alazar is Back]

First off dropping an atom bomb is not even close to what happened to the Jews....

Second, the thing that really irritates me is that when you take about the Holocaust and all of the genocide that was commited by the NAZI's people forget about all of the other people that were killed. Gypsies and Polacks...

Third, another thing that most people dont know is what the Jews were doing to the Germans beforehand. This can mainly be blamed on all of our liberal history books and historians, but the Jews in the beginning got what they deserved. Im talking about when the NAZI's boycotted them and made them wear the Star of David and all of the other various rules that were imposed on them.

Fourth, Noone seems to remember what happened to them after World War 1 do they? The Germans were treated extremely unfairly. They had to shoulder all of the blame.

I said no, but i think if you look past all the bad things the NAZI's did they also had some great accomplishments.

[Gen. Volkov]

Second, the thing that really irritates me is that when you take about the Holocaust and all of the genocide that was commited by the NAZI's people forget about all of the other people that were killed. Gypsies and Polacks...

The Poles killed as part of the Holocaust were mostly Jews, but you will notice that bjorn gave a figure of 12 million. That's 6 million Jews, plus 6 million assorted others. Mostly Slavs. People just tend to think of the Jews more than the others because they were the single largest group and the ones specifically targeted in Nazi propaganda.

Third, another thing that most people dont know is what the Jews were doing to the Germans beforehand. This can mainly be blamed on all of our liberal history books and historians, but the Jews in the beginning got what they deserved. Im talking about when the NAZI's boycotted them and made them wear the Star of David and all of the other various rules that were imposed on them.

Alazar, you have no idea what you are talking about here. German Jews made the best of a crappy situation, and for that they were persecuted and slaughtered. They didn't deserve what happened to them, at any point, any more than any other ethnic group did. Basically, they managed to piss people off because they were successful in businesses that they had been shoved into due to not being allowed to do anything else. Besides which, you are ignoring the great contributions German Jews made to their country. Quite a few of Germany's greatest scientists, and the people who made Germany a world technological leader, were Jews.

Fourth, Noone seems to remember what happened to them after World War 1 do they? The Germans were treated extremely unfairly. They had to shoulder all of the blame.

Um, look more before you type. Quite a few people mentioned the Treaty of Versailles. The Germans were understandably pissed about that. That hardly gives them a right to conquer Europe and systematically slaughter 12 million people. Particularly when the US was bailing Germany out of that particularly jam until the Great Depression hit. The US was a non-signatory to the Treaty of Versailles, and thus US banks lent Germany the money to pay the war reparations forced on them.

I said no, but i think if you look past all the bad things the NAZI's did they also had some great accomplishments.

Yeah, but it's looking past the bad things that's the issue. Most of the accomplishments of the Nazi's were military in nature, and only served to further their agenda. Even revitalizing the German economy was in part due to the arms buildup prior to WW2.

[kell]

Ally what are you smoking?

The US was a non-signatory but the 14 point plan was the US presidents idea (wilsons i think not 100%) which the Germans were lead to believe to be the deal they were being offered.




"the Vietnamese never defeated the US in open battle"
eh going into a pitched battle against the US would've been stupid and against common sense. the US lost the war no way around that

[Gen. Volkov]

"the Vietnamese never defeated the US in open battle"

eh going into a pitched battle against the US would've been stupid and against common sense. the US lost the war no way around that

But there WERE pitched battles, and we won every single one of them.  We lost that war not because of any military failing, but because the politicians lost their nerve. And really, there is a "way around" the US losing in Vietnam. two ways actually. First way is that we ended the war by bombing the north into submission with Operation Linebacker and Linebacker 2, forcing them to sign an armistice and peace treaty. They later broke that treaty, but after the US had withdrawn from Vietnam for the most part. 2nd way is that, in technical terms, Vietnam wasn't a war. The US sent a military force there, but Congress never actually declared war. How can you lose a war if there isn't a war?

But you have also proved my point with your statement. It was stupid to meet the US in pitched battle, precisely because we were and are a strong military power.

[kell]

was Korea a war or police action? if you want to call into something else go ahead it still means the same thing

For another, that was a primarily a conscript army, not a volunteer army like the US has today.

so you conscripted an army and sent them overseas to fight BUT its not a war???

[Gen. Volkov]

so you conscripted an army and sent them overseas to fight BUT its not a war???

The draft had been in effect for awhile, as it was a peacetime draft, rather than a wartime measure. And in technical terms, no it wasn't a war. It's a cheap cop out, I know, but still. You'll notice that I still refer to Vietnam as a war elsewhere in the post though, so I don't actually believe that logic. That's why it's "way around" #2.

was Korea a war or police action? if you want to call into something else go ahead it still means the same thing

Police action, technically, as the US has not fought a declared war since WW2. In all the ways it matters though, Vietnam and Korea were wars.

[Saladin]

   First off, the dropping of the atomic bombs had nothing on Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, or even Tokyo. Those carpet bombings were much more destructive, yet have never had the same publicity.

  Secondly, I have to agree with kell. The Nazis' military and economic genius has and may never will be matched throughout history. Strategically, the Nazis were amazing.

  Also, Windy is right. The only solution to prevent 10s of millions of casualties was to drop the atomic bomb.

  And Volkov, your completely wrong. The Nazi party was the sole reason the German Economy was saved from the Weimar Republic's destructiveness to it. The U.S. Military also would never be able to achieve what the Nazis have.

  And the principals of Nazism are not Aryan supremacy. That is what it has become to be known as, but it is a common misconception. Try to argue that to a German WWII vet.

  Personally, I have no problem with Nazis. By showing disdain towards one or holding contempt for them, you are prejudicing and are no better than one of them, a bigot yourself.

[Gen. Volkov]

First off, the dropping of the atomic bombs had nothing on Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, or even Tokyo. Those carpet bombings were much more destructive, yet have never had the same publicity.

Firstly, Dresden, Hamburg, and Tokyo were firebombed, not just carpet bombed, secondly, the only one of those that produced more over destruction and loss of life in a single attack was the firebombing of Tokyo, and even that is only if you count immediate deaths from the bombing of Hiroshima. Now the reason nuking those cities is talked about more is because A) radiation poisoning is a horrific way to die, and B) it was the first and only time nuclear weapons have been used in war.

Secondly, I have to agree with kell. The Nazis' military and economic genius has and may never will be matched throughout history. Strategically, the Nazis were amazing.

Economics... well, it's not hard to be economically successful when you spend money at the rate the Nazi's did in an all-out gear up for war. As for military success, certainly they did very well in France and Poland, but the Nazi's showed their strategic stupidity in both the Battle of Britain and the attack on the Soviet Union. In both cases, the fights were winnable, but Goering's and Hitler's dumb strategic decisions hurt their efforts and ultimately caused them to fail. If perhaps, the Luftwaffe had had a more competent commander, or Hitler had been more attentive to his generals when planning the invasion of the Soviet Union, they might have won the war. So no, strategically, the Nazi's were not amazing, otherwise they would have WON!

And Volkov, your completely wrong. The Nazi party was the sole reason the German Economy was saved from the Weimar Republic's destructiveness to it. The U.S. Military also would never be able to achieve what the Nazis have.

What saved the German economy was gearing up for war, and Hitler spending nearly every ounce of the German gold reserve to pay for it. That kind of cash influx will do wonders for any economy. Now the Nazi's are indeed responsible for that, but what I think you are referring too, the social programs and such, were merely helpers, and not the main reason the German economy began booming again. Also, the Weimar Republic is not truly to blame for the German economy being in the crapper, the main problem was the Treaty of Versailles limitations on German industry, and the heavy War Reparations Germany had to pay, after spending so much on war during WW1.

As for the US MIlitary versus the Nazi's, well, considering our advanced equipment, and our adoption of many tactics developed or perfected by the Nazi's, as well as the extremely high level of training our troops receive, I do believe that the present day US Military is quite possibly the most potent fighting force the world has ever known, barring maybe the Romans or the Waffen-SS. We are certainly a much more capable force, for our time, than the main German Army was circa WW2.

And the principals of Nazism are not Aryan supremacy. That is what it has become to be known as, but it is a common misconception. Try to argue that to a German WWII vet.

Nazi's were a right wing group, diametrically opposed to the Communist Party, and many of their tenets dealt with that. However, anti-semitism and ultra-nationalism, as well as ethnic nationalism and eugenics are also prime among those tenets. The hatred of Jews was something fairly common in Germany in the years leading up to WW2, as was the idea that the reason the Germans lost WW1 is because they were not "German enough". The Nazi's used, fed on, and incorporated these ideas into their ideology. The Aryan ideal was something Hitler and others often talked about. It is not a misconception to attach these concepts to Nazism.

Personally, I have no problem with Nazis. By showing disdain towards one or holding contempt for them, you are prejudicing and are no better than one of them, a bigot yourself.

Then I feel sorry for you. The Nazi's are directly responsible for not only attempted genocide, but the mass murder of 5 or 6 million other people, in addition to the 6 million Jews they killed. Not only that, but they started the European side of the costliest and most deadly war in history, and are responsible for killing 10 million civilians in the course of their campaign in Russia. So I really fail to see why I am a bigot for hating a group that committed acts as horrible as these. I can of course be more specific in who I choose to dislike out of the Nazi's of the time. Many were honorable men who refused to participate in these acts of depravity. Many others were simply soldiers in the service of their country, with little or no knowledge of what their leaders were doing. Not everyone who called themselves a Nazi was a horrible evil person. However, the leaders, and those who participated in these horrible acts ARE evil people, and rightfully deserve to be hated. Anyone who calls themselves a Nazi now, is tacitly approving of what those people did. So I have a problem with them, and I have problem with people like Himmler and Hilter. There are people who called themselves Nazi's who I don't have a problem with, Rommel being one of them, but overall, I have a serious dislike of the Nazi party and what they did and stood for.

[Firetooth]

Nazi's ruined germany's economy, I remember a picture of children using stacks of cash as building blocks...also people had so much cash they carried it around in baskets, the baskets were worth more then the cash, so people would beat them up, steal the basket and leave the cash. It was mass inflation.


"Then I feel sorry for you. The Nazi's are directly responsible for not only attempted genocide, but the mass murder of 5 or 6 million other people, in addition to the 6 million Jews they killed. Not only that, but they started the European side of the costliest and most deadly war in history, and are responsible for killing 10 million civilians in the course of their campaign in Russia. So I really fail to see why I am a bigot for hating a group that committed acts as horrible as these. I can of course be more specific in who I choose to dislike out of the Nazi's of the time. Many were honorable men who refused to participate in these acts of depravity. Many others were simply soldiers in the service of their country, with little or no knowledge of what their leaders were doing. Not everyone who called themselves a Nazi was a horrible evil person. However, the leaders, and those who participated in these horrible acts ARE evil people, and rightfully deserve to be hated. Anyone who calls themselves a Nazi now, is tacitly approving of what those people did. So I have a problem with them, and I have problem with people like Himmler and Hilter. There are people who called themselves Nazi's who I don't have a problem with, Rommel being one of them, but overall, I have a serious dislike of the Nazi party and what they did and stood for."-volkov

I agree, saladin, the nazi's slaughtered millions of innocents because of their religion/sexuality. If you like nazi's, you're practically saying you agree with slaughtering one because of their race/religion/sexuality.

[Gen. Volkov]

Nazi's ruined germany's economy, I remember a picture of children using stacks of cash as building blocks...also people had so much cash they carried it around in baskets, the baskets were worth more then the cash, so people would beat them up, steal the basket and leave the cash. It was mass inflation.

That was actually before the Nazi's came to power. The German economy was in the toilet in the 1920's and early 1930's. After the Nazi's came to power, and their public works programs began, the economy improved, and after the gear up for war began, their economy was doing very well indeed. Of course, after the strategic bombings began, it went back downhill, and by the end of WW2, Germany's economy, along with much of the country, had been destroyed. Which is why so much money went to Germany as part of the Marshall Plan.