So ... who else hates college?

[kell]

I doubt 20% of the population was in the army at the time so those figures have to mean a lot of civilian innocent deaths but knowing his army could've wiped out a lot more innocents and didn't is a great comfort to me.

"It has recently been argued by one historian that many of the actions taken by Cromwell were within the then-accepted rules of war, or were exaggerated or distorted by later propagandists.These claims are not accepted by most historians."

Saying cromwell wasn't that bad to me is like saying to a polish jew Hitler wasn't all that bad sure 6million could've easily been 10million.

[Gen. Volkov]

Saying cromwell wasn't that bad to me is like saying to a polish jew Hitler wasn't all that bad sure 6million could've easily been 10million.

I know kell. That's why I was hesitant to start a conversation about Cromwell with an Irishman. I didn't say he "wasn't that bad" I said he wasn't ALL bad.

It has recently been argued by one historian that many of the actions taken by Cromwell were within the then-accepted rules of war, or were exaggerated or distorted by later propagandists.These claims are not accepted by most historians.

Unfortunately, that's a Wiki quote, and cannot be counted upon to be absolutely reliable.

I doubt 20% of the population was in the army at the time so those figures have to mean a lot of civilian innocent deaths but knowing his army could've wiped out a lot more innocents and didn't is a great comfort to me.

You are correct, many of the deaths were technically civilians, though the difference between a civilian and military personnel wasn't great at the time. Basically the distinction was whether you had a gun and marched in some sort of formation or not. This was even less true in Ireland, where the only real distinction between soldier and civilian was having a gun.

I know it's small comfort that he "only" wiped out 20% of the population.

That figure is in dispute by the way. The estimates vary greatly, but no matter what number you accept, Cromwell did end up killing a heck of a lot of people. The man certainly wasn't a saint. All I'm saying is that he wasn't precisely Satan either. He was as much a product of the 17th century environment as anyone else. He had been made harder, colder, and more ruthless than even the average during his early years because of what the English King was doing.

[windhound]

just a small note,
"British history 1688 boring well I'm biased, we get invaded and defeated so many times around that period that I stay well away lol eurpoe 1870-1914 is great" - Kell
If you read that without background it sounds like Kell's saying British history is boring because they get invaded and defeated
...which is true, the British isle is constantly in a state of flux in its beginning.
Now if you add the bit that Kell is Irish, a fact I wasnt thinking about when I typed my reply, it reads british history is boring, but I'm bais as the irish get invaded and defeated etc. 
Big difference.

"Not the English windy, the Irish. In the 1600's, the British were kicking rear and taking names left and right. They rolled over the Irish several times during this period. Especially Cromwell." -Volkov
I stated the course was from the beginning to 1688, the fact that the year is only half past means we're somewhere in the 1400's, nowhere near where England's rule is solid.  We just passed the War of the Roses.  Huge amount of flux, they're in no position to kick anyone's rear.  France even beat them out in the hundred years war, and France never wins wars = P

...continue on

[kell]

volky my ould pal i truly love our debates,never had anybody i could talk history with.when it comes to cromwell its obvious ill hold a strong and ill admit biased opinion on it as its yet another chapter in a long book of irish defeats and english oppression maybe thats why i prefer 1916-21 after that its all down hill yet again.
  any preference for the next topic?

and windy via le FRANCIS! long live the maid wait the wars over she's already dead lol

[Gen. Volkov]

Now if you add the bit that Kell is Irish, a fact I wasnt thinking about when I typed my reply, it reads british history is boring, but I'm bais as the irish get invaded and defeated etc.
Big difference.

Yes, I know, that's what I was getting at. It is a big difference. I see your point though. Yes, nearer to the beginning of Britain as we know it today, the Isle was in a state of flux. Heck, the Normans took the whole thing over in 1066.

I stated the course was from the beginning to 1688, the fact that the year is only half past means we're somewhere in the 1400's, nowhere near where England's rule is solid.  We just passed the War of the Roses.  Huge amount of flux, they're in no position to kick anyone's rear.  France even beat them out in the hundred years war, and France never wins wars = P

Ah, I see what you mean, yeah, as I'm sure you know by now, by the 1200's, the Britain we know was beginning to emerge, and by the 1400's, the first victories in a long series of them came. Such as the Battle of Crecy. They suffered some defeats over the century of course, but as you get into the late 1600's, the period I think kell is talking about, they become firmly established as one of the two great powers of Europe. LOL, yeah, France won the Hundred Years War. Sort of. Given the politics of the situation, it's all rather confused, what with Edward III technically being the King of France as well as England being a vassal state of France, yet owning more French land than the French King, way back before the war. But yes, the French eventually pushed the British off the Mainland.

volky my ould pal i truly love our debates,never had anybody i could talk history with.when it comes to cromwell its obvious ill hold a strong and ill admit biased opinion on it as its yet another chapter in a long book of irish defeats and english oppression maybe thats why i prefer 1916-21 after that its all down hill yet again.
  any preference for the next topic?

Really? Well cool. Yeah, 1916 - 1921 is a better chapter for the Irish. Next topic... hmm. I dunno. No real preference.