Race Improvement

[taekwondokid42]

Suggested improvements:

Rats: Offensive Indy race

good as they are



Painted one: Bonus-less  Race

good as they are.                                 



Stoat: Powerful leader race

Definately decrease the magnatude of the Academy Spell. 3 leaders per hut sounds good.



Fox: Sly

Perhaps it should have a great potency in the leader portion of "warlords hut", but regular potence in "generals hut" This would give it the ability to be a great clan member, yet not so good as a stand alone character.



Wildcat: Leader/Indy mix

Great reduction in the loyalty cost of the pressgang, but maintains same cost for other spells, in order to put a check on how powerful it is. The race needs to be tested to see if it is powerful enough when it depends on a Wolf for loyalty.   



Lizard: Defensive Indy Race

Slightly increased food and training, maybe decreased loyalty, although loyalty is already low should probably have a new special spell.



Wolf: Leader mass producers
They seem to be good enough with the new changes
               



Marten: leader moneymaker

should have more loyalty, better merc prices, and the spell should be much more powerful, and need a lower leader/hut ratio.



edit: I'm going to update this as the ideas change with the thread

[Shadow]

A good tent strat with wildcat? that was just a suggestion i made in passing and hasnt been tested as far as i know - maybe i will do it this coming round

dont make conclusions you havent tested

basically you just want every race to be good at leadering, and the game generally made easier :-P

[Alazar is Back]

dont make conclusions you havent tested

basically you just want every race to be good at leadering, and the game generally made easier :-P

Again took the words right out of my mouth, quit posting that crap everywhere its annoying!

[taekwondokid42]

A good tent strat with wildcat? that was just a suggestion i made in passing and hasnt been tested as far as i know - maybe i will do it this coming round

dont make conclusions you havent tested

basically you just want every race to be good at leadering, and the game generally made easier :-P

I wasn't talking about your strat.

Idunno had an interesting idea and I had 9 hours of free time in a car (while traveling) to figure out its probability of being good.

I also tried it, and it was excellent. Until I ran out of loyalty, that is. I had enough to last me a run, and then it was 10-20 turns earning loyalty to every 1 turn spent pressgang.

It is as good as indy (or better) so long as you have the loyalty, although when you have more tents than huts, finding loyalty takes entire runs, putting a huge dent in the plan.

So it would help if we just lowered the cost of the pressgang spell,? that way wilddcat wouldn't become to powerful, and would still be overpowered by stoat and marting when it comes to food and cash massing.

[Shadow]

what factors effect the cost of missions? is it land or net or something else?

[The Lady Shael]

It's either the loyalty or leadership bonus that effects cost of missions...can't remember which. o.o

According to Peace, when he was setting up the bonuses for each race before Duels even started:

Lizard: Defensive Indy Race
Rat: Offensive Indy Race
Wildcat: Indy/Leader mix
Marten: leader moneymaker
Stoat: Offensive with and against leaders
Wolf: Leader mass producers
Fox: Sly... thats all there is to it
Painted One: newbie race

[Shadow]

yes its the loyalty and leadership bonuses, but as your net/land go up so does the cost of missions... since i biuld all huts usually im not sure if its the land/net or a ratio thing

[The Lady Shael]

Looked it up, base mission cost is:

(land * .1) + 100 + (huts * .2) * loyalty bonus * number dependant on networth

[edit] By the way, I'm guessing you used the Revive option...so it worked fine?

[taekwondokid42]

sheal, you wouldn't happen to know how much cities cost to build?

[Shadow]

revive works fine, but if you look at snares kill count it says shadow III instead of Shadow

also, when you revive it displays your old account's defence history - not important bugs, but just so you know

[taekwondokid42]

What if the lizard's magic spell was to maxhimself.
What if each time he used his spell, the amount of times you could attack him went down by 1?

That seems much more defencive than 10% increase, and might make him a popular character.

also, what if painted one did not have a special spell, and just had even more plusses. It seems hard to make a nuetral race and still give it a special.

[Shadow]

that sounds incredibly overpowered and would give leader fighters a huge edge over indiers

[taekwondokid42]

point taken.

[Peace Alliance]

I'll take these one at a time:

My idea on all race bonuses:

rat: massive indy race.

They build fast, they get troops fast, they get an incredible merc bonus (btw, change it to green not red, -40% is a good thing). Low costs is also red, but I'm pretty sure it should be green. Lots of cash flow. Low food, but easily made up for by the 80% troop income bonus. The battlefield healers is an okay special.

The market multipliers always have goods and bads to being higher or lower. it depends on your strat.

Painted one: clean slate, however, most of the other races have many more pluses than minuses. Perhaps everything should be 20% positive. The frenzy spell is okay, but come on, how many ppl use suprise attacks?

this race only exists for those who want to say "i beat you and i don't even have bonuses". And as for how many people use surprise attacks... i would say that most Painted Ones would! the point of these races isn't to make them all fit your personal strategies, you have to mold to the best strat for each race.

Stoat: Some pluses, makes it okay at every thing. Very few minuses. The academy spell is extremely powerful, and is what makes the stoat as good as it is.

academy spell never used to be used when we had it a while ago, i agree it's powerful but so are most special spells. We lowered stoats strength after the first release, does it still need to be lowered more?

Fox: Lots of minuses, and the pluses aren't even that great. The cloak spell is okay, however, it does not make up for the poor bonuses

Fox is one of the races i made specifically to work in a team. The cloak spell is actually quite powerful if you work it properly into a teams strategy.

Wildcat: A well balanced race, 3 minor minuses, many minor plusses. The pressgang spell is nearly useless, because of loyalty lacks. For the pressgang to be better, wildcat needs better loyalty.

Again, teamwork is stressed here. As indy races often need help getting food, this race will often need help having loyalty. Save up loyalty for a big strike, or get loyalty sent from a wolf.

Lizard: a highly defensive race, good for if you don't want to participate in the attacking part of the game. Is has some minuses, and is not that great of a race. the fortify spell is okay, but 10% will generaly not make much of a diference from attackers, and with such a defensive race, good luck sustaining a massive army.

I think the issue here is that you haven't yet thought of any good defensive strategies. And 10% is a big deal, when put on top of the races defense multiplier.

Wolf: many minuses, not many plusses, overall a very weak race. The enrich spell is incredibly weak, seeing as being in a clan of 13 wolves, all using enrich, you would still only have a +25% bonus. Seeing as they start with -40 food, and -30 foraging, painted one would do better.

the foraging multiplier means that you get less food from your farms, and the food one is how much food your army consumes. Wolves make their food with leaders, so they don't make much from their farms. and they store up food, so i made it so their army eats less so thats easier. +25% bonus to your feasting is a heck of a big bonus. Also, wolves strength also comes from the fact that it produces a ton of loyalty (making it a great race to team up with indy's so you can give them food, or with wildcats so you can give them loyalty for their pressgang)

Marten: equal minuses and plusses, the goldmine spell is useless when compared side-by-side with the stoat academy function.

i'll look into this a bit more, i didn't think it worked out that way in the testing.

I see lots of room for improvment with the races. I would also say that on regular, the race bonuses should try to even out with a painted one with 0 everything, and on turbo the races should try to keep even with the painted one with +25 everything.

This is hard to explain. But to each race there are different strategies that work best. That means that their multipliers aren't always worth equal value. Giving a Rat extra loyalty would be useless, and thus loyalty is worth very little to a rat, but to a wildcat loyalty is worth a heck of a lot! So if i were to even them all out to 0, it wouldn't exactly mean things are equal. Balance is a lot harder to find, because of the way the game play works out.





Maybe i will write up a quick guide to each race before i head back to camp next week. And i'll look into stoat and see if it is in fact still a bit to strong

[White Fang]

Something I posted in another thread:

toat beats out Marten in just about every aspect.

Cashing:

After only spending a handful of turns on Academy, Stoat can use Loot at 170% effectiveness, but then you add in the fact that they have a 50% bonus to missions, and you have a Loot of 255% effectiveness.

On the other hand, Marten can use Goldmine to cash at 200% effectiveness, and then even adding in their bonus, you still only have 260% effectiveness...but they end up using WAY more loyalty than Stoat does with a few Academies and then simple loots.

The verdict? Stoat beats out Marten at their own game.


Feasting:

Stoat can feast at a 255% effectiveness, but Marten only at 130%.


Leader Missions:

Stoat can launch and defend against leader missions at 255% strength, but Marten only at 130%. (And it's even better than that, since high ratios are particularly effective).


Stats:

Stoat has better offense, defense, build, costs(?--this is a guess, since the game guide is currently messed up in certain areas), loyalty, training, scouting, leadership, and foraging.



Stoat beats Marten hands-down.