Back stabbers / the TBV

[Juby (Tercios)]

 hey, now that's mean, I never even retaliated to wolf bite, I just took repeated attacks from him, repeated heavy attacks.

[General Austin]

 That is only one part of the argument. The other parts you continue to ignore, and all I have seen you do is argue that "You were unfairly attacked by wolf bite", over and over and OVER and over again.  Wolf Bite has pointed out other facts that have negated your claim several times.  Frankly, it's getting annoying that you keep saying something a zillion times.

[Juby (Tercios)]

 how has he negated my arguements, I did diddly squat, he just thinks he can do whatever he wants because I = evil.  the whole point of this is that he ruthlessly attacked me, with full knowledge that allen rock was commiting rogue actions and was quickly booted, simply because he saw the opertunity to take advantage of me cause he knew I was not going to jeopridize the truce.  Did I once attack wolf, nope, he however online attacked me and then attacked me 21 times this morning, he's just using Allen rock's actions as far as it'll take him.

[General Austin]

 Whatever. This is going back to what everyone else said before me, and it isn't even my argument anyways. I'm going to stop arguing now, because (As with many other arguments) there's no point to it.

[Riverpaw]

 Oy! Unless you were in it, give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

[Germania]

3)Yes, Allen Rock is ineligible for attacks now. I'll accept the blame for those attacks since he won't and I'm the leader of the clan. What do you want as repayment?

I won't? Thought I did already.

[calria]

I won't? Thought I did already.

In here you did, but in-game you're unavaliable for more retribution.

[Juby (Tercios)]

 So because he's gone it is perfectly acceptable to Scapegoat me?

[wolf bite]

Okay Juby, with your post about ?am I evil,? let me try this one more time and in a different way.

You were a great leader of the Loren clan. Honorable and noble.  It is just that you are not seeing what everyone else sees in these circumstances.  You keep fixating on ?but he did that to me.? Just like in a schoolyard fight, you can?t only look at the last punch to see who started it.

Lets do mutable choice.

1)   As a leader of a clan, you are told that at the very moment a truce is being broken. Do you:

a)   immediately step in and take action to stop the rouge attacker and defend the player under truce
b)   take no responsibility and do nothing

2)   After the rouge that breached the truce has wiped out the person under truce. Do You:

a)   talk the rouge player into regaining face with the clan by letting the injured player get their land back.

b)   make an secrete agreement with the rouge player to take all his land and thereby keep it from the injured player

3)   when the indicants are brought out into the open, do you:

a)   admit that the rouge player asked you to take the land and give that land back to the injured player
b)   make it look as if you were punishing the rouge player

4)   When everything is done, what should the clan do:

a)   make a deal with the injured player that was under truce to put them back to where they would have been had your clan not breached the truce
b)   take no responsibility for any actions your clan may have done

Now, like any good chess game, try this from the other point of view.

5)   When under attack from a clan under truce, should I:

a)   make every attempt at contacting the rouge player, and the clan leaders
b)   attack the rouge player and his clan without yet knowing what is going on.

6)   If the attempt to contacting the clan and the rouge did not help and I need leaders to protect myself from further attacks. Do I:

a)   Attack under capture from the clan that is attacking me
b)   either sit and be slaughtered, attack my attack thus giving him even a better ratio to harm me more, waste all my turns trying to gain leaders, or attack other people under capture that are not involved

7)   Once I got my ratio under control because of the massive attacks on me. I try to attack my attacker, but find that he is maxed out by one of his clan leaders. Do I:

a)   Attack the clan leader to get some of my land back.
b)   Sit and do nothing and just give up the game

8)   If the clan that had broken the truce (whether unintentional or not) had benefited in 30K of land over the incident and I had lost billions of cash and most of my land, do I:

a)   demand restitution from that clan
b)   toss my hands up in the air

9)   After the first round of fighting is over and the clan seems unwilling to make a deal, do I:

a)   Make a post to try to get the other clan to take responsibility
b)   Ether do noting or attack that clan massively

10)   If that clan refuses to give any restitution nor even take responsibility in the forum, do I:

a)   declare war on that clan
b)   break the truces I have with the rest of the game to try to recoup my losses from people not involved

11)   When that clan says that they are willing to go to the bargaining table with me over the incident, do I:

a)   cease-fire immediately and notify those I had attacked in the clan that a temporary cease-fire has been called.
b)   Expect those I attacked in the clan to retaliate on me during the cease-fire.


I would really like to direct you to take each of these questions in order and put down what you think should be done.  I think that had you picked (a) in the first part, then none of the second part would have existed. On my side, I again picked all the (a) choices.

Please, please without going off topic, can you respond to each one of the questions?

Again, I do not think you are wrong, just not seeing the whole picture.


Wolf Bite

[Juby (Tercios)]

 I did both of a few, I told him that he was online attacking you and he wasn't supposed to, I deffered you to the clan leader, he was booted, I helped him kill himself, I assured you the truce was still on, I didn't even respond to your online attacks, I notified Orcirst.  I was made assitant leader by default just recently, I was not yet told our diplomatic position by Ereptor or Orcirst.  I am not responisble for getting you your restitution, Allen Rock did not give aid to anyone.  You see here's where the problem really happened, you made a brash and hasty decision, Allen Rock commited Rouge acts, I assured you they were rogue acts and deffered you to Orcirst, you could have waited for assured mediation, instead you jumped the gun, and online attacked me, after which Orcirst when he got online, attacked you.  Had you been patient and hearing that Allen Rock was committing rogue actions and waited to discuss retribution with Orcirst, you probably would have been successful, it is a testament to my devotion to mediation in that I did not retaliate, you on the other hand, did not even wait to talk to our clan leader.  And as far as a cease fire, as far as I was concerned, the truce was still on because you were well aware that his were rouge acts, I said you could do what you wanted to allen rock and assured you the truce was still on for the rest of the clan.  And stop using your ratio as an excuse, whoopity doo if your ratio goes down, it is not that big of deal, I get my ratio messed up almost daily, that is not an excuse for anything.  On top of that, after this issue climaxed and the detente happened, our clan was under the impression that you knew, just as I had told you, that the truce was still on, we've apologied for allen rock's actions and he did personally as well.  And then you claim mediation had failed quite bizarrely and attack me 21 times,  I did all I could, I am not the leader of this clan, your actions were inappropriate and hasty.

[wolf bite]

Please, please without going off topic, can you respond to each one of the questions?

When everything is looked at in a mess of facts taken out of order, it is hard to see the picture.


Could you try to deal with it somting like "In question 1, I think that ...."

I really am not trying to give you a hard time, just to get you on the same page.


Wolf Bite

[Juby (Tercios)]

 uggghhhh, tedious
here's what I did:
- I told him what he was online attacking you, that he was not supposed to and tried to get him to stop.
- I booted him.
- I helped him kill himself.
- I assured you the truce was still on.
- I didn't even respond to your online attacks.
- I notified Orcirst
Here is why this is all I did:
- I was made assitant leader by default just recently.
- I was not yet told our diplomatic position by Ereptor or Orcirst.
- I am not responisble for getting you your restitution as assitant leader, that is not within my bounds.
- Allen Rock did not give aid to anyone, you are factually incorrect here.
Here is where I beleive the problem lies
- you made a brash and hasty decision
- Allen Rock commited Rouge acts.
- I assured you they were rogue acts and deffered you to Orcirst.
- you could have waited for assured mediation
- instead you jumped the gun, and online attacked me.
- after which Orcirst when he got online, he attacked you
- Had you been patient and hearing that Allen Rock was committing rogue actions and waited to discuss retribution with Orcirst, you probably would have been successful.
- It is a testament to my devotion to mediation in that I did not retaliate, you on the other hand, did not even wait to talk to our clan leader.
And as far as a cease fire
- as far as I was concerned, the truce was still on because you were well aware that his were rouge acts.
- I said you could do what you wanted to allen rock and assured you the truce was still on for the rest of the clan.
- After this issue climaxed and the detente happened, our clan was under the impression that you knew, just as I had told you, that the truce was still on.
- We've apologied for allen rock's actions and he did personally as well.
Then you claim mediation had failed quite bizarrely and attack me 21 times.
- Why would we be seeking mediation when we beleived that we were at status quo ante bellum?  This whole time we thought the truce was still on because you knew that allen rock's actions were rouge actions, We thought the actions of that day were over and were moving on.  
- You were well aware of the fact that we were not going to attack you because I had told you that the truce was still on with the exception of Allen Rock.
And stop using your ratio as an excuse
whoopity doo if your ratio goes down, it is not that big of deal, I get my ratio messed up almost daily, that is not an excuse for anything.

Patience is a virtue which you uncharecteristacally lacked in this instance, If you had been more patient, retribution would have been assured, instead you scapegoated me in Allen Rock's abscence, I am not the supreme decision maker for my clan, it was completely appropriate for me to defer you up the ladder to orcirst.

[Juby (Tercios)]

 *bumps* so what else should I have done?

[Orcrist]

 Ok- everyone chill out a little bit. Let's diffuse this situation. Juby, I understand that you're mad because you got heavily attacked, and Wolf Bite, I believe you are mad for the same reason. Now reasonably, since neither of you has a ton of land, the logical solution would be to attack people who DO have land.

Secondly, Sorry that I haven't been around, but Wolf Bite has contacted me and I'm trying to work out another truce. Please stop attacking each other because that isn't really helping negotiations.

Thirdly, since Wolf Bite wanted those questions answered and Juby has not yet gotten around to it, I'll do it.

1) As a leader of a clan, you are told that at the very moment a truce is being broken. Do you:
a) immediately step in and take action to stop the rouge attacker and defend the player under truce
((This is what I attempted to do but the rogue attacker was already stopped by Juby))

2) After the rouge that breached the truce has wiped out the person under truce. Do You:
a) talk the rouge player into regaining face with the clan by letting the injured player get their land back.
((This is what I am in the process of trying to do right now- the getting the land back part))

3) when the indicants are brought out into the open, do you:
a) admit that the rouge player asked you to take the land and give that land back to the injured player

4) When everything is done, what should the clan do:
a) make a deal with the injured player that was under truce to put them back to where they would have been had your clan not breached the truce
((Once again, this IS what I'm TRYING to do, but all this arguement isn't helping out at all))

From Wolf Bite's Point of View:

5) When under attack from a clan under truce, should I:
a) make every attempt at contacting the rouge player, and the clan leaders

6) If the attempt to contacting the clan and the rouge did not help and I need leaders to protect myself from further attacks. Do I:
a) Attack under capture from the clan that is attacking me
((Note- the attempt contacting the clan is helping, so I'm not sure how much this applies))

7) Once I got my ratio under control because of the massive attacks on me. I try to attack my attacker, but find that he is maxed out by one of his clan leaders. Do I:
a) Attack the clan leader to get some of my land back.
((Two things, first of all- the clan leader also needs land, secondly, I am quite glad you didn't do this :)))

8) If the clan that had broken the truce (whether unintentional or not) had benefited in 30K of land over the incident and I had lost billions of cash and most of my land, do I:
a) demand restitution from that clan
((Note- the other answers for 7 & 8 were kinda ridiculous- there are other alternatives, but we don't have to get into that))

9) After the first round of fighting is over and the clan seems unwilling to make a deal, do I:
a) Make a post to try to get the other clan to take responsibility
((We did take responsibility, as did Caedo (edit to one of my last posts for saying that he didn't))

10) If that clan refuses to give any restitution nor even take responsibility in the forum, do I:
NEITHER- This doesn't apply. I did offer to give restitution!!

11) When that clan says that they are willing to go to the bargaining table with me over the incident, do I:
a) cease-fire immediately and notify those I had attacked in the clan that a temporary cease-fire has been called.

Finally, I think that this really needs to be resolved right now. Juby and Wolf Bite, we had a longstanding truce that was broken through not real fault of the clans, but our handling of it was slightly unclear. If everyone who really isn't involved could please NOT post here so that we can resolve this, I'd appreciate it. Finally, Wolf Bite- I am currently working on ideas for restitution for your massive loss of land (happened to me and Juby too). I sent you a quick reply to your in game message cuz I was kinda outta time. If you have any ideas, I'm always open to suggestions.  

[wolf bite]

 Thank you Orcrist,

I was mostly displeased with Juby scooping up the land from Allen Rock before I could recover it. I am at peace with all players until they show me differently. So I could not recover my land from others in first strikes against them. Juby did not pick any of the (a) answers when dealing with this matter.

As far as the second half, all of those did have relevance before you came back and started dealing with this. I was trying to show Juby why I did the actions I did based on what I knew at the time.

I had made the questionnaire to show what decisions were made at the time they were made.

And for the rest of the game that are watching these talks, Orcrist and I have worked out an agreement that does not involve aid nor land transfers. TBV has regained it honor in its offer of restitution.


Wolf Bite