3rdreich

[Juby (Tercios)]

 Well I don't think it is impossible for technology and communism to coexist, for example, Canada produces way more food then we need, we export most of it, and even then the agriculture industry only employs about 350 000 people, (source: http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/labor10a.htm ), which means that we are easily fed by 1% of the population.  All the jobs that need to get done to maintain our standerd of living (I inclueded all primary industries, manufacturing and trades, education and health care)  amounts to about 8 million, that means about 1/4 of the population and about half the current workforce (this workforce excluedes the unemployed and disenfranchised) can provide all the technological products, all the necessities and all the art we need as a nation, the rst in this present system work in the support of capitalism, their jobs are really useless (like an insurance agent, useless in communism,(many manufacturing jobs would be useless so that makes up things I've missed) (now at this level the deep marxian in me would recommend everybody be trained in two professions because it is unfair to force certain poeple to work hard labour jobs and the rest get to do what they want, therefore I would say that everybody should have to do some hard work, and then move on to the extra jobs that would need to be created)  I would think with that much of the population completly useless but completly provided for, living in middle classia, that Canada would quickly become a mecca of the arts and sciences because the Arts and sciences are one of the few things (sports would be in their too) that serve to truely benefit the people.

[Aqualis]

 

I would think with that much of the population completly useless but completly provided for, living in middle classia, that Canada would quickly become a mecca of the arts and sciences because the Arts and sciences are one of the few things (sports would be in their too) that serve to truely benefit the people.

But then everybody is no longer equal. If some excelled in art and others in sport they would garner the respect of others and as such would soon rise above the common people.

Respect makes you treat people differently.

[Edit: One more thing, how are you going to get the people in power to give up their power and sink to the middle class?]

[Guthorm Swordmaster]

 Yeah thats a good question.

[Juby (Tercios)]

 Well if you elected communists who beleive in communism they should just take their equal pay, if they got elected then didn't take the pay cut in Canada, the Auditor General would Scream Sheninagans on the top of her lungs and they'd lose the next election.  As far as respect being contrary to communism I doubt that, if someone rises to the top of their feild does that mean they get more votes and more money then others in a communist state, no.  they do influence people but only in that feild, for example if somebody does sometime very original in their painting style, It could inspire people and influence their style, however it will not change their vote, and even the people who have respect, respect other people.  And at the end of the day, Communism is about control of the economy and the means of production, not peoples views or thoughts, a communist government would attempt to end evils such as hunger, poverty and greed. Not change what people are, just change their surroundings to reflect equality.

[Aqualis]

Not change what people are, just change their surroundings to reflect equality.

What about the people who try to change their own surroundings instead of letting someone do it for them. Like a theif. If he were to steal say $40,000 he would no longer be equal to everyone else.

[Juby (Tercios)]

 well thats one of the great things about communism, many crimes disappear, not all of course, but stealing generally disappears and heavy narcotics. the reason; Well why are most people stealing and why do most drug dealers sell drugs, usually because their poor and naturally they ask themselves, why does that jerk over their deserve this and I don't? and since their is no good reason (note: you may say, cause he works harder or he should get a job but saying that is not accurate, full employment in Canada is estimated at 6%, thats the point when so many people have jobs that inflation goes crazy which in turn eliminates jobs, this means their will always be unemployed in capitalism regardless of work ethic, and the Unemployment rate only counts those who are looking for work, so people who have been disenchanted by the economic system don't factor in which means that for many more then 6% of the population there isn't a job waiting for them) they become disenchanted with the economic inequalites and take matters into their own hands, ie crime.  Why would you steal a CD from your neighbour when you could order it at the end of the week? Why would you risk prison selling drugs if you had all you needed.

[Gen. Volkov]

 You guys just don't get it. Communism is flat impossible for humans to work. It involves so many things that are directly opposite to human desires that it can never be implemented.

(Break real quick here) As someone of Russian-Polish decent, I also find this 3rd Reich clan offensive, but if they only care about the greaqt military of the 3rd Reich, then I have no problems, because something as magnificent as the WW2 German empire almost has to be admired, regardless of what motive lay behind it.

(Back to argument) The first problem with communism in our world, is it requires that no one has any desire for power. As long as humans crave power, communism can't work. It is technically the perfect form fo government, but as long as humans crave power, it can't work. It fails right there, however, if you wish to disagree, then I will go into more details.

We do not have true democracy in this country, we have a liberal representative democracy. By liberal I mean it involves personal freedoms, which technically a democracy doesn't have to have. It only requires the right to vote freely. The reason we have a representative democracy is because direct democracy can't work on the scale of our country.

And crime doesn't diminish in a communist country, only if there is true communism. But as I said, it won't work in the human world. One more thing. Humans want to be able to be ahead in life of other humans, with communism you can never have more or less than your fellows, so it diminishes the work ethic. Lastly, communism in our world has string central government, but as I believe was mentioned, that is not true communism.
(*Has taken polysci classes, government, and Econ classes.*)

[Guthorm Swordmaster]

 So you think Capatilism is goodthen?

[Juby (Tercios)]

 (*Has taken Economics, polisci, and all  the scoical sciences offered in grade 12 U*)
Well, on the power issue, I do not believe that people are inheriantly power hungry, I beleive that that is a something you develope when faced with the incessant competition of capitalist society, in various types of aboriginal communities this concept of power does not exist and they all work towards collective goal because they have been raised to work together and not for themselves.
As far as democracy goes, in a communist state(a proper communist state) a representative democracy would probably still exist but in a different fashion, first, referendums on important issues would be more common, adn second the role in government would longer be associated with power, it is a burecratic organizational job, which is why government positions have names like General Secretary, if the person were to abuse their position, the various positions in Canada such as auditor general and the ethics commission or if their consituency complained that they were not being accurately represented then they would fire the person on grounds of incompetance and corruption and the person would be forced to work outside of government.
I said earlier that only certain types of crimes diminish, like theft and harder narcotics, however a communist country can't stop poeple from getting really mad, therefore murder would still exist just like now.
Finally your comment on the work ethic i disagree based on the way we were raised agian, certain goods you are correct in saying are based on getting ahead of other people, like why do you not only want a car to get you from point A to point B but a car that inspires envy as well, well this is based in our being raised to be competitive but I put to you that Utilitarianism still exists without competition.  for example your music collection (assuming your don't download it all) or your book collection, why do you want more, because you enjoy them, would you not still be motivated to get things such as this new CD or book or Movie (recall that with the disappearance of so many jobs that become useless in communism (like insurance broker) that with the fullfillment of all needs that the main employment would be the arts and sciences so their would probably be way more music and way more books simply because their are way more people free for such pursuits).  Why not work out of your own interests for what you would enjoy rather then work just to look better then the next man, I knowI would prefer a huge enjoyable CD collection and a generic car that gets me from point A to Point B like it's supposed to then I would a flashy car and a small CD collection.

[Aqualis]

 Where does human nature come into all this? So far you have been using an example of a human that does not have the basic wants and desires of a human being. Jelousy is still a factor as wellm even if everybody has the exact same stuff, the exact same income, the exact same car, house, whatever; they will still be jelous of how other people look.

You may say that they will not be raised that way, but nobody was to begin with, someone had to come up with the idea.

"Nature will find a way."

[Juby (Tercios)]

 I've already answered that, communists don't seek to control nature, they seek to control the economy so taht even if somebody is say more attractive, the less attractive person will not have to feel hunger or be denied anything, why does the attractive person deserve more, well they don't but in a capitalist society they often get more, we can't control human nature, we just seek to make everything that can be controled equal because communists believe in the equality of every person.  your arguement doesn't discredit communism, just cause people can be jerks, doesn't say squat about the goals of economic equality, we just seek to make the physical existence equal as it should be.  just cause life can be unequal in human terms, doesn't mean it should be as far as economics goes and as I've made pretty good arguements for, it can be maintained even by jerks.

[Aqualis]

 Ah, I didn't know we were talking only about economics.

As far as that goes, I don't want someone controling all my money for me.

[Juby (Tercios)]

 well the point is that money wouldn't really matter, it'd be more about products, and it would no longer be YOUR money, it would be everybodies labour and everybodies productiveness.  And to be honest, with a group of people you elected as able burecrats all putting their heads together, odds are that you on your own are more likely to waste your money then they are.  Point and case, the average american is spending 113% of their yearly earnings.  This means the average american will be going further in debt, therefore your already wasting your money, you might as well have somebody else to blame when it gets wasted :lol:  

[Gen. Volkov]

 Juby I realize you support comunism, for whatever reason, but do it and yourself a favor and stop trying to prove your point by making these unsupported claims... all these claims you are making, one, don't work in real life, and two most are false. THese tribes you talk about. Its not that they don't want power, its that they can't HAVE power because of their situation, power is secondary when you are fighting to survive. You are correct in most of your statements about communism. BUT IT DOESN"T WORK IN REAL LIFE! If you take humans out of the equation, then I will let you have your communism, but communism just doesn't work with humans, the two are simply incompatible.

I do not believe capitalism or democracy is perfect either though, I just think its the best we have right now.

[Juby (Tercios)]

 uhhhh, half the point here is that real communism has never been tried so you can't make claims like it doesn't work, and most native communites wre living quite easily until europeans came, they weren't struggling to survive, they were doing fine, and so should actually pose a real rebuttle, explain why you think people are so greedy and lazy, don't just state it.