Rats vs. Stoats

[Juska]

 Ok, well I'm here trying to prove that rats kick stoats behind in every single way.

   First, let look at their stats
                 Rat: 2 off. 1 def. Upkeep:(per unit) $1   .05 food
                Stoat: 5 off. 3 def. Upkeep:(per unit) $4   .02 food
   
  Buildings stats:

1 barrack on 100% rats trains 4 rpt(rats per turn)
1 barrack on 100% stoats trains 1 spt(stoats per turn)
1 forager produces 75 fpt
1 market produces $1,000 cpt

Ok senario 1:

    Two empires have 10,000 land, the rats masser has 4,000,000 rats and the stoats masser has 1,000,000 stoats.

   Rat Masser:

          4,000,000 rats = $4,000,000 and 200,000 food in upt
       
            To break even the rats masser needs 4,000 markets and 2,666 foragers, that leaves 3334 free land acres. If all of those are barracks he can train  13,336 rpt = 26672 off. and 13,336 def.

  Stoat masser:

        1,000,000 stoats = $4,000,000 and 20,000 food in upt

           To break even the stoat masser needs 4,000 markets and 266 foragers, that leaves 5734 free land acres, thats 2400 extra acres, put all into barracks he can train 5734 spt = 28,670 off. and 17,202 def.

Conclusion: The stoats wins in off. and def. coming in per turn and free land acres

But, in scenario 1 the total rats off/def points exceed the stoats.

   Scenario 2:
   
       The SM still has 1,000,000 stoats which = 5mil off. and 3mil def.

       The RM has 2,500,000 rats to equal the SM in off.

RM: 2,500,000 rats = $2,500,000 upt and 125,000 food in upt

        To break even the RM needs 2,500 makrets and 1,666.6... foragers, that leaves 5833 free land acres, put all into the barracks = 23,332 rpt = 46,664 off. and 23,332 def.

SM:   1,000,000 stoats = $4,000,000 and 20,000 food in upt

           To break even the stoat masser needs 4,000 markets and 266 foragers, that leaves 5734 free land acres, thats 2400 extra acres, put all into barracks he can train 5734 spt = 28,670 off. and 17,202 def


Conclusion:  The RM now wins in Free land, off. and def. points, I might add he wins by a very large margin in both those 2 catagories: 17,994 off. and 6,130 def. :o  

Scenario 2a:
   
     Seeing the RM exceeds the SM in o/dppt lets see how many barracks the RM needs to equal the RM in offppt. 17,994 extra off points/ 2/ 4 = 2249.25 barracks which could be excluded.

   Conclusion: The RM now has 2,348.25 more extra land than the SM.

Scenario 2b:

   The RM excceds the SM in def. points too, now lets do the same thing as above, but with def. points. The RM has 6,130 def. pts extra /2/4 = 766.25 barracks which could be excluded.

   Conclusion: The RM now has 865.25 more extra land than the SM + more off. points coming in pt 39,744 vs. 28,670 a total 11,074 more oppt.

That all I'm going to type for now in the coming days/weeks I will  take rats vs. rats and compare them to staots vs. stoats. I will compare the rat with every other troop type, and cover the fact that you lose more rat per attack than stoats per attack, the guard tower siphoning(sp?) and, one more that I can't remember.

All information I used came from personal tests and a post from beatles taking from the last code on upkeep, which should be the same as the current code. If you want I'll find the post.

Some other things: There are better ways to make money than just plain  markets(tents/markets  camps/private market  public market and leaders to name a few)

Edit: Fixed a few spelling errors

[wolf bite]

 I think we have talked about this somewhat before.

A) are you sure about the upkeep?

B) More rats die per attack so you have to have to make more if them then stoats for a long attack.




Wolf Bite

[Nohcnonk]

 More people mass rats, rats die off much too quickly, and there is more attack in the stoats that you can buy on the mercs than for the rats, so I normally use stoats. ^_^

[Juska]

 The upkeep is probally correct as I said Beatles got it from the code. I'll explain why even with the high death per attack why rats still win.

[Gen. Volkov]

 LOL, Juska.. I had this convo with you on AIM.. you will never convince anyone who uses stoats that ratties are better, because we all know you are wrong... just stop tryin man... must I post my arguements for why stoats are better?

[Juska]

 Go ahead, but if you read that it pretty much states why rats are better.

[The Weasel Liberation Mov]

 Rats are good, and Stoats are as well.

The thing is, this is theroy that you are talking about. When it comes down to it, more people use Rats than Stoats, Weasels, or Skiffs, so even a bunch of weasels might be easier to break someone with.

Of course, the best if you play a money strat is to buy both. :P

[Juska]

 Well, maybe I'll prove why skiffs are the best.....

[sonnenburg]

 id say stoats are better because they are worth more then rats and they are very easy to come by if your massing leaders. loyalty and cash...
1000 stoats=4000 networth
1000 rats    =1000 networth
it is also very easy to break people if your using marten just get some cash buy your stoats break the snot out of n e one (usually) plus a lot of people are using stoats so you will also take a good chunk out of there networth from land and there stoats

but yes rats are good for breaking people cause of the 2:1 hit ratio everyone knows that but they are worth nothing! i guesse its alright if you wanna stay low in the ranks and just mass land but id rather be like top ten with 8mil stoats or more under myself

if your using the money strat and using rats then it is hard to use rats because if your attacking someone with a lot of rats then your going to loose massive amounts of rats on both sides and then arent able to buy from mercenaries and have to go for the rip off prices of the market

all in all stoats in my opinion dominate rats but if your gunna get to the top you gotta have all troop types maxed to the limit

-sheba

[Juska]

 Sheba, rats train 4 time faster than stoats, therefore you would have 4000 rats when the guy with stoats would have 1000 so the net ='s each others, you can't compare rats 1 on 1 with stoats, you have to take masses. And you need less rats to break people = less net, therefore you can easily hide your true power.

[The Weasel Liberation Mov]

 It all depends on your situation... IF the people you are fighting are Rat massers but have hardly any Weasels, you're better off fighting with Weasels.

[Juby (Tercios)]

 this all sounds like rock paper scissors, he couldn't be dumb enough to pick rock, but he thinks I'm dumb, so I'll pick scissors, or he thinks I'm dumb enough to think he's dumb enough to pick rock so he's gonna pick scissors and so I'm gonna pick rock and this goes around forever.

[Juska]

 Right, except its not true rock papper scissors because paper(rats) can have an edge on paper(rats) if you took away specialized attacks it would be rock paper scissors. I agree with weasels, certain troops are best in certain situations, but I'm saying rats are the best offensive and maybe overall troop.

[Orcrist]

 This is incorrect. In your scenarios, you described specific instances in which rats are better than stoats, however, once applied to the game, this doesn't work. Let me explain: at the beginning of each set, when everyone starts out afresh, most people mass rats. By the time almost everyone is out of protection, most people have at least 1 million rats and as many as 10-15 miillion rats. On the other hand, someone with 2 or 3 million stoats easily rises to the top, because everyone is massing rats. He or she then builds guards, buys some rats (as they are cheap to buy), and they are victorious. Now, in essence, 4 rats can be trained in the same time as 1 stoat. Since rats die in much greater number than stoats during attacks, and because the top players normally have at least 12 million rats by this time, as well as a decent amount of guards, a safe estimate to rise to the top using rats would be at least 16 million rats and maybe 17 million (this is if you want to rise to the very top and actually hold it). The time it would take to train 2-3 million stoats= the time it would take to train 8-12 million rats. On top of all of this, much less of your land needs to be devoted to foragers, as 1 rat eats more than 1 stoat, so 2-3 million stoats would need WAY less food than 16-17 million rats. When applied to the game, stoats are simply superior. It really astounds me how people still don't understand how much easier it is to use them.

[Badrang the Tyrant]

 Forget about doing all the math, just mass 'em all! :P