Promisance License

[Burninate]

 We're still waiting.
In fact, let's set a time limit. If Retto doesn't respond until, say, January 7 (one week after hols) then we report RWL?
Ideas, folkies?

[The Lady Shael]

 People were really at it in that topic, and wouldn't stop when asked. You complain about how the staff aren't handling those things as well as they should, so I'm just trying to follow those wishes.

If you are indeed, striving to make RWL a better place than it is, then WHY are you trying to destroy it? You have the most backward logic I have ever seen.

[calria]

 Yes... the logic behind your arguments does stand with plenty of room for ulterior motives, and a lack of logic as well, really.

[Burninate]

People were really at it in that topic, and wouldn't stop when asked. You complain about how the staff aren't handling those things as well as they should, so I'm just trying to follow those wishes.

People were "really at it"? That part consisted of Dixie making insulting remarks at us, and when she could find nothing else to back her, ran away from the topic blaming us.
Those "wishes" were a single comment made by Nick, who seems to think he has the right to command what happens here, and how people should be treated. I still don't think you are handling this well. You close because someone tells you to. It is your decision that says whether a topic is closed, and there should be a reason for that. I (personally) would respect that if it was your decision and you had a good reason for it.
Unfortunately, you've contradicted yourself. You said people were "at it" in the topic and wouldn't stop. You say only a few lines later you were complying with Nick's wishes.
Which really means, in the process of trying to get people to increase their linking for you, you closed the topic because Nick said it should be. You come and post in here saying it was because we weren't behaving, so you have a better reason.
I don't even /remember/ a warning. Ah well, maybe my bad memory.

If you are indeed, striving to make RWL a better place than it is, then WHY are you trying to destroy it? You have the most backward logic I have ever seen.

Burninate is not trying to destroy it. It was threatened we would report RWL.
However, this is about proving we are right, what little I know of it. FaF will blow RWL out of the water, it doesn't need anything stolen from BAX.
If Retto would concede that he is wrong, we would be much happier.
Retto is currently away for New Year, can't expect any response at the moment.

[Juska]

 Why not release the code, and get those guys off your back, I think they proven why it should be revealed, if you report RWL that mean the server will be shut down? And what is FaF?

[Scarwake]

 In actuality I don't think by 'reporting' RWL to this FaF or whatever will cause the server to be shut down at all, because for one, FaF has no authority over the usage of website servers...Retto pays for his server and FaF, unless it is a gov. agency or owner of the server in which Retto hosts RWL on cannot shut down his server.....

And what is FaF???

[Almkman]

 I believe FaF is Frost and Flame.I could be wrong.

[calria]

 FaF is Frost and Flame, the new version of TSoR that's coming out pretty soon.
One of the theories behind this sudden upsurgance of rebellion against Retto's wishes for the code's public-ness is that the people behind TSoR want to see the code so that they can use it in making FaF. I think this is dumb, simply because I know what's going into FaF and things, and they don't need it because they're going in what sounds like a totally different direction from where Retto went with BAX.

[Burninate]

In actuality I don't think by 'reporting' RWL to this FaF or whatever will cause the server to be shut down at all, because for one, FaF has no authority over the usage of website servers...Retto pays for his server and FaF, unless it is a gov. agency or owner of the server in which Retto hosts RWL on cannot shut down his server.....

And what is FaF???

Oh boy...

First of all, FaF stands for Frost and Flame, which is a promisance expansion. How you read in that one would report RWL to FaF is beyond me.

What RWL would be reported to, is probably QMT. You know the people who wrote what RWL is based off of? Anywho, RWL is breaking the GPL. Which is the license Retto/Boze agreed to when they downloaded the original source. How, you may ask, are they breaking the GPL? Well for those of you who are just tuning in right now, RWL:BAX does not release source. The stated reasons seem to change, but basically Retto believes that someone will take his code and not credit him. It is a valid concern, but not a valid reason not to release the source. Boze has also tried to use the reason that "Why should we follow the GPL when you guys are the ones who stole our source!?" Which is basically the whole "two wrongs make a right" fallacy.

Anywho, if QMT wanted to, they could press charges or ask Retto to give the source. Really, I understand Retto's wishes not to, but if you think about it, PC Purgett never had to release Promisance. If he hadn't this game wouldn't be around...

Also, TJ, you can shut down websites by other means than "being the owner/being a government agency." For example: I draw something. THen you steal it and put it on your website without giving credit or asking. I am fairly sure I can force you to take down the image. Ask wolfbite though, since he's a lawyer I believe.

[Juska]

 Ok, at least I understand all this now. Why shouldn't the scource be released, if it makes FaF better than RWL good competition drives everything and then maybe retto will come out with an even better RWL.

[Burninate]

Ok, at least I understand all this now. Why shouldn't the scource be released, if it makes FaF better than RWL good competition drives everything and then maybe retto will come out with an even better RWL.

That's the whole point of open source. If you write a program, and distribute the source, I can write an add-on and make it better and then distribute it, then others enhance my version, etc.

[Orcrist]

 Umm- I haven't been here awhile, so don't get too mad at me if I don't completely understand what's going on, but I was just wondering, why don't the admins release the source? Is it that they feel someone would take their work and not credit them? I simply don't understand why they wouldn't want to show their sources, so that people can take their work and improve on it. If everyone was closed and kept their ideas isolated, we would never advance in anything.

[Burninate]

 That's what we are wondering as well. So far the Admins have given two reasons, one; they are worried that someone would swipe the code without crediting them. A valid concern, given the fact that the current version of Warbands doesn't credit RWL. The server itself isn't working, so it is unlikely to expect that to be corrected before FaF (though, I do remember seeing previous versions of Warbands with RWL in the credits. This looks like a snafu of some sort...). However, that isn't a reason to keep the source hidden. Two; that some of the code comes from an unknown set of "licensed libraries" which Retto agreed to keep hidden due to security reasons. One of the Burninate thinks the code's origin is from Vulpine Imperium, another (myself) has thought of the possibility that the code was lifted from Invision Power Board (for that link to forum account thingamajig in the warlord's hut. Say, what does that do anyway?). So far there has not been an official word on the origin of the libraries. Even if these code libraries are covered under some sort of NDA, or are property of Retto (assuming that they can be clearly separated from, and free of, the Promisance code) it is not a valid reason to keep the rest of the source hidden.

EDIT: This is the content of the credit's page over at RWL. Just putting it here so I don't have to make a new account to view it all the time.

Black Ages Expansion

The Black Ages Expansion is thanks to the ideas and efforts of Retto, Ad, Boze, and Stormclaw, with input from the entire community.

Redwall: Warlords Black Ages expansion is not an open-source game. However, it is based off of RWL: DEX, which is.

Bealtes would really like you to know that a few things here were his idea, and while others allowed their ideas to be anonymous (thank you to everyone who has suggested things, it has really served to make an improved game), he would like to be credited, specifically, for the notepad and for your ability to perform many missions in the general's hut at once.
Dark Empires Expansion

Dark Empires Expansion was created based upon an idea by Sean A., with most of the coding being done by Retto. The code is available at this location. The Redwall: Warlords team is not responsible for anything having to do with this code and its effects upon your server or machine. We do not guarentee support in setting up or understanding the game, but if you are nice, we will certainly help out.

Redwall: Warlords Dark Empires Expansion is based off of the original Redwall: Warlords.
Redwall: Warlords

The original Redwall: Warlords was created by Boze's modifications upon the original QM Promisance game.
QM Promisance

Redwall: Warlords is based largely on the GNU game, Promisance?. QM Promisance code written by The Quietust and Morvandium
EZClan Promisance

Based on code from EZClan Promisance, by Tom Finnell and Jordan Heine
And more code from Nuitari's Promisance
Promisance

Promisance? v1.1 - Copyright ? 1999-2002 by PC Purgett
Special Thanks to...
All the testers in all forms throughout the whole project and everyone who's given Promisance a shot either playing or running it
... from those testing the original Visual Basic version (*shiver*) to the latest and greatest.
Without the testers and everyone involved, there is no way Promisance would be where it is today and I can't thank them enough.

Also, the Promisance licence:

? ? ?Promisance Public License Agreement
? ? ? ? Revision 03.11.2002

The latest version of this file will be available at http://promisance.sf.net/license.txt. (Mirrors of this file are
permitted)

The code contained herein is the properly of PC Purgett ("Author") and any other contributing parties (outlined as such
in the "Credits" while logged in or the "CREDITS" file available in this archive).

Use of this code on any remote system or server is required to abide by the following guidelines or termination of the
agreement will ensure and possible legal recourse be taken. Any modifications to this document can only be completed by
the Author and will be available at the URL stated above and will be considered in effect immediately upon the
updated agreement posting.

Guidelines for use of the Promisance source code included in this archive:
* You are permitted to use this code on as many servers as you wish for as many versions of the game as you wish.
?In short: Feel free to make as many games as you want on as many servers as you want. ?The more you have, the
?more power to you.
* You are NOT permitted to remove any portion of the "CREDITS" file or "credits.php" file. ?You MAY, however, add
?your own information into this file if you wish or modify the layout for customization, removal of current
?information revokes your license to the source code.
?In short: Give credit where credit is due, or else.
* Modifications of the source code must be re-distributed as a whole (unless there are licensed libraries involved
?that would violate those individual license agreements to re-distribute) and must include the "CREDITS" file.
?In short: If you alter the code, you have to let other people see it too.
* The Author reserves the right to limit release of the source and to revoke this license agreement for another
?at any time, for this version, any previous version, or any future version. ?This license agreement also stands
?for any future version of the project. ?Promisance releases under the GNU General Public License will stay that way.
?Any version after 4.0 (February 1, 2002) is per this license.
?In short: While it probably won't happen, if I decide to close the source and/or limit it to certain people, I can.
* Any new archives created MUST include the "CREDITS" file, this license agreement (named either "license" or "copying",
?case insensitive), and an installation file (either named "readme" or "install", case insensitive). ?".txt"
?or ".doc" extensions on these file names is also permitted.
* All copyright information must remain intact. ?If you wish to add your own, that is permitted. ?However, the current
?copyright information must NOT be altered.
* Maximum amount of liability toward use of this source code is $.01 United States
* This source and license is governed under the State of Wisconsin in the United States of America and abides
?by those laws as such. ?If I have made an oversight, it will be rememdied immediately.

This source code is licensed, not sold or given away, for all to benefit from each other's work. ?Official releases
will be available at http://promisance.sf.net. ?Revision numbers will be based on the date in which it is revised in
the following format (MM.DD.YYYY - Example: 03.11.2002). ?This is a document in development and can be changed at any
time.

(Added Note: Promisance License does likely not apply)

[mice of might]

 Three; They might have decided not to release the source code because not all of the bugs are fixed. And as we all know, RWL bugs have been exploited in the past (This mans done his homework).
Four; Someone has made this into an arguement. Him verses the admins... Also with the assumption that he could win? You can't argue with the admins, just like you point out they can't argue with the riginal QMT programmers. What I'm getting at, is if retto releases the source code right now, he is bowing down and admitting defeat. Do you really expect he would do that? If you truely want the source code released, I truely think you're going the wrong way around this.

If january 7th is Retto's last day to open the source code, then why not leave him alone till then? You'vfe laid out all your arguements and he is obviously not responding, so basicly all you are doing is trying to convince more and more people that you are right and he is wrong. That has very little to do with you tring to get the source code, and i think it has more to do with you tring to challange the admins by gathering followers. Or perhaps you are feeding your ego? no sorry, no personal jabs here, I'm sure each of the burninates have perfectly healthy egos.

[General Austin]

 Heh. I agree with mice of might. Although, I do wonder why you're getting so angry about it even when you say your own game will "blow us out of the water".

I mean, if yours is better without our code; then why make huge arguments to get a code you really have little need for anyway? Unless you have some hidden agenda, from what I have read, and I admit it isn't much, I see no reason for you to expend so much energy on this.