Useful troop information

[Veranor]

 What I'm saying though, is what if you buy the food? I'm pretty sure the difference makes Rats cheaper early on.



EDIT:

Assuming that base market costs are 30 (which I believe they are), and not counting land/race bonuses to cost, then we can see


Consumption Per Turn (Credit: Beatles):
........... Cash ........ Food
Rats ...... 1 ........... 0.05
Stoats .... 4 ........... 0.02

Rats Total Cash Consumption (based on base worth of private Market Food): 1+ 0.05*30 = 1+1.5 = 2.5
Stoats Total Cash Consumption (based on base worth of private Market Food): 4+0.2*30 = 4+0.6 = 4.6

Also, assuming that you can find equal amounts of targets for both, then we have to assume that:


Enemy losses Your losses (Credit: Wolfbite)
Rats 0%-8.05% 0%-14.5%
Stoats 0%-6.75% 0%-7.88%

Means you lose about (not taking in bonuses):

Rats: $500 * 0 through $500 * 14.5% = $0 through $72.5 per Rat attacking? (7250 max loss per 100)
Stoats: 0 through $2000 * 7.88% = $0 through $157.6 per Stoat attacking? (15760 max loss per 100)

IMHO Rats = Cheaper.

I'll check some other stuff later, have to go now though...

Also, new units are not tracked for upkeep until the turn after they are created.

So if you get 500 rats in your first turn, you won't have to pay their upkeep till turn 2.


[Just merging your double post. ]
[Thanks - Veranor]



CONT (Edit 2):



Assuming you're not into all of that "buy from PVT market" stuff (because, as we all know, it would be
very unfortunate if the PVT market ran out of food ;)),
Let's examine what Orcrist said.

The amount of food you gain is about: Freeland * 5 + Farms*75 + racial bonus.

If we leave out the racial bonus for a moment, let's examine what this means.

if you have 1 farm and 0 freeland, you create about 75 food, IN ONE TURN.
Looking at the consumption chart....

Consumption Per Turn (Credit: Beatles, again):
........... Cash ........ Food
Rats ...... 1 ........... 0.05
Stoats .... 4 ........... 0.02

That's a .03 difference in food consumed...

One farm can support:
(75/0.05) 1500 rats
or
(75/0.02) 3750 stoats.

But, let's remember Rats have the better ratio, so you really need less of them to win offensivly.
Assuming Aus had 10% farms, with about 78000 land, he could support:
(.1*78000)*1500 = 11,700,000 rats, from farms alone. Adding in a good amount of PVT MKT food (I forget the formula, so sue me), leader missions, and aid, any built up on the rise to the top etc: and he could easily support many, many, rats.
Now let's think what Aus's opponents (let's say they have 35k land) would have to have (not counting guard towers): about 23,400,000 (using the Farms only rats), this would mean they themselves would have about 15600 farms. Or 50% of there land in farms.

So while Orcrist said it's easier to maintain Stoats, it's also easier for your opponent, and the ratio is slightly worse for the attacker(5 to 3, as opposed to 2 to 1).


EDIT 3 (Regeneration Rates):

Gains per turns:

$armtrp = ceil(($users[industry] * ($users[ind_armtrp] / 100)) * 1.2 * $urace[ind] * $config[indc]);
$flytrp = ceil(($users[industry] * ($users[ind_flytrp] / 100)) * 0.3 * $urace[ind] * $config[indc]);

Or in other words:

Rats gained = (Barracks (right Beatles? Man am I not familiar with the source anymore) * (troop growth percentages for rats/100)) * 1.2 * Racial Bonus * 2.8 ( I think that's the default in my source.)
Stoats gained = (Barracks * (troop growth percentages for stoats/100)) * 0.3 * Racial Bonus * 2.8


So in other words, you gain about
4 times as many rats per turn. Recalling what Wolfbite said about the loss rate, this makes up for it IMHO.
The only problem is that while Stoat's gain rate is less, their loss rate is closer to the defender's loss rate. Although, if you build on land as soon as you get it from an opponent, and take turns to manage your army inbetween huge attacks, you can easily make up for the losses in rats depending on your strategy.



Basically like most people already new, Rats are cheap, powerful, and efficent

[The Dark Warrior]

 Wow Veranor. I actually read and understood that. You did a lot of research and I find no flaw in your work.  

[wolf bite]

 Great work!

But the factor that is not known is how many times you attack.  If you have 400 turns and make 40 attacks in those turns. You will have lost 2 times as many Rats as Stoats. Then The cost to rebuild those rats would be much more then the differance above.  

I don't have a calculator that will do powers on me today, but it would look something like this:

adverage loss per troup type times 40 times

Rats
-7.25% to the 40th power

Stoats
-3.84 to the 40th power

It would seem that if you had no barracks to thorw off the math, you would have lost all most all your rats and had to buy a full new army.


Wolf Bite  

[Veranor]

 I'll do a 10 turn summary with both attacking units. Assume we have 1000 of each, and each turn we lose the average which you listed...



Turn 1:
You attack:
Rats: 1000 - (1000*.0725) = 927.5 = 928
Stoats: 1000 - (1000*.0384 ) = 961.6 = 962

A 40 unit difference., (assuming our opponent has 1000 of each troop, no matter what (though I may do another chart with their losses), we can still attack with both unit types and wind)


---------------------------------------------------*At this point I got lasy and just wrote a script to do it. So here's the script's output, it's a little off do to rounding, but I think it does the job.

A 40 turn analysis

Turn 1 :
Rats: 927.5
Stoats: 961.6

Turn 2 :
Rats: 860.25625
Stoats: 924.67456

Turn 3 :
Rats: 797.887671875
Stoats: 889.167056896

Turn 4 :
Rats: 740.04081566406
Stoats: 855.02304191119

Turn 5 :
Rats: 686.38785652842
Stoats: 822.1901571018

Turn 6 :
Rats: 636.62473693011
Stoats: 790.61805506909

Turn 7 :
Rats: 590.46944350267
Stoats: 760.25832175444

Turn 8 :
Rats: 547.66040884873
Stoats: 731.06440219907

Turn 9 :
Rats: 507.9550292072
Stoats: 702.99152915463

Turn 10 :
Rats: 471.12828958968
-------Failure for Rats after this (assuming opponent keeps constant 1000)-----
Stoats: 675.99665443509

Turn 11 :
Rats: 436.97148859442
Stoats: 650.03838290478

Turn 12 :
Rats: 405.29105567133
Stoats: 625.07690900124

Turn 13 :
Rats: 375.90745413516
Stoats: 601.07395569559

Turn 14 :
Rats: 348.65416371036
Stoats: 577.99271579688
-------Failure for Stoats after this--------

------Jump to the end------

Turn 40 :
Rats: 49.267069626011
Stoats: 208.82293061557

There is a 159.55586098955 between the two.



Of course, if you wanted a true analysis one would factor in enemy losses, but assuming we don't, this is what I see. Stoats can get in 3 more attacks, and end with 100 more. Of course this is a silly way of playing. The method shown in the script is basically the way you want to play if you want to maximize your losses, though, my next script will show you the losses factoring in an intelligent player's moves.

Everyone knows that the more units you attack with, the greater the losses. This is common sense because it is percentage based of course (which speaking of which, losses based on enemy forces would be a very interesting change for expansion.)

So the best way to minimize losses, is to simply attack with what you need to win (this is going to have some slight errors because (correct me if I'm wrong), there is a 5% bonus for defenders, (and we're ignoring attack/def bonuses from race as well)

Anyways:

1/2 = .5, so the attacker's troops need to be at least .5*defender's for rats.
3/5 = .6, so the attacker's troops need to be at least .6*defender's for stoats.

Turn 1 :
Rats: 963.75
Stoats: 976.96

Turn 2 :
Rats: 927.5
Stoats: 953.92

Turn 3 :
Rats: 891.25
Stoats: 930.88

Turn 4 :
Rats: 855
Stoats: 907.84

Turn 5 :
Rats: 818.75
Stoats: 884.8

Turn 6 :
Rats: 782.5
Stoats: 861.76

Turn 7 :
Rats: 746.25
Stoats: 838.72

Turn 8 :
Rats: 710
Stoats: 815.68

Turn 9 :
Rats: 673.75
Stoats: 792.64

Turn 10 :
Rats: 637.5
Stoats: 769.6

Turn 11 :
Rats: 601.25
Stoats: 746.56

Turn 12 :
Rats: 565
Stoats: 723.52

Turn 13 :
Rats: 528.75
Stoats: 700.48

Turn 14 :
Rats: 492.5
-------Failure for Rats after this, all values void(assuming opponent keeps constant 1000)-----
Stoats: 677.44

Turn 15 :
Rats: 456.25
Stoats: 654.4

Turn 16 :
Rats: 420
Stoats: 631.36

Turn 17 :
Rats: 383.75
Stoats: 608.32

Turn 18 :
Rats: 347.5
Stoats: 585.28
-------Failure for Stoats after this--------

So, stoats still have more attacks, but the losses for Rats aren't that bad.

Also, remember about the regeneration rates, they are nearly 4 times as many for rats than for stoats.


----

I modified my script to give the reading for how many barracks over 2 turns used in attacking, would make up for losses.

In a 50million rat vs 50million rat, playing with min. losses, you need about 269717.26190476  barracks to make a 100% recovery. This is difficult, and, I doubt most people could maintain such a status for very long.*

In a 50million stoat vs 50million stoat, playing with min. losses, you need about  685714.28571429 barracks to make a 100% recovery. This, would require a lot of skill and land. Though it has probably been done before .*


So again, bringing back to what Orcrist said about land division, while you may need to spend a bit more on foragers with rats than stoats, you're going to need to spend a lot more on barracks (more so than the foragers you're going to need ;)). So your army would be a lot more decimated after those 40 attacks with Stoats. Of course I still need to factor in min losses with enemy losses. Except not many people will do that... In fact few people do min losses with many units besides Rats (we all know how many people hate to do math in this game ...stares at Dark Warrior and TJ...)



EDIT: There was a slight (ok big) error in my formula for troops produced, but it has been fixed.
*This is with 100% in unit type.

[The Beatles]

 Apropos: troop losses are indeed based on the enemy's forces.
So if warlord A with 20 rats hits warlord B with 20mil rats, they will both lose about 4 rats apiece.
If warlord B with 20mil rats hits warlord A with 20k rats, they will both lose about 20k. It's in the code somewhere, look it up.

BTW, exceedingly good job. Now, let's factor in the following. The way I make cash is by selling troops. With rats, I never have enough to sell to make a dent in my economy, and indeed, after a while, bmper_armtrp gets maxed and I have to wait a day or two to repeat. So it is better to sell stoats than rats. Just a thought.

[Veranor]

 I'll check it in a moment, searching for that Losses based on Enemy losses thingy.

EDIT:
Oh yes I did ever so miss this


$emod = sqrt($op/($dp+1));      // modification to enemy losses
$umod = sqrt(($dp-$towp)/($op+1));      // modification to attacker losses (excluding towers)


I think I'll work that into my equation in a bit, but checking on your other point... gimme a second.

EDIT2: Selling Comparisons:

First let's look at this
$costs[armtrp] = $config[armtrp] * .32;
$costs[flytrp] = $config[flytrp] * .36;

So when you sell Stoats you're getting .04 more of what you originally pay.

But that's debatable if that's all that great, because the max price you can sell for is default price *.5 .
Remember also that bonus for price is:

$costbonus = 1 + (1-$config[mktshop]) * ($users[barracks (but that's not really this game barracks if I recall)] / $users[land]) + $config[mktshop] * ($users[shops] / $users[land]);

So I mean, if you take advantage of that well enough, then you can make up for the 04 difference.

Now the real thing is the max amount you can sell:

$config[bmperc] = 8450;      // Percentage of troops that can be sold on black market (divide by 100 for percentage)

So I guess Stoats are better for selling.