A discussion about themes and change

[Death]

I was speaking to someone about the theme this site has and it was decided that bringing it up couldn't hurt, so I am.

Every single person that I know (as in like, have communicated with a fair deal over time) on this site does not really care about Redwall. To add to that I know for a fact that over the years the theme here has heavily discouraged many Prom players from coming here because it feels a little creepy. Like, honestly, this website feels like some To Catch a Predator material to me. A bunch of adults on a website that is themed after something that is for kids, you know? It's a bad look. Between the alienation this site has always had from the rest of the Prom community and the fact that the Redwall theme seems to be failing now given the amount of players who don't like the theme and the overall userbase I think some discussion of a possible change could be healthy.

Now, themed Prom games are what attract the most people. A while ago myself and another player launched one themed after a video game series that was not particularly popular and the first set began with over 100 players registered. Before that I have seen it done multiple times and be successful every time save one where the game just didn't work. Themes can help, but this one is obviously not helping and even hurting somewhat considering there are still several Prom players out there and most won't play here even though the code is so interesting.

I already know a lot of people will probably not like the idea of a change, but seriously think about it, it's obviously not working out. I'm not even saying just flat out abandon the theme and go back to regular Prom theme, I'm just saying maybe it's about time everyone really thought about something that could attract more players. And before anyone blames this on Prom being unpopular let it be known that to this day Prom games are still reaching 50 players or more per set without any theme at all, and Prom in general was even more dead when I and another were able to get a game of 100 players who had never even heard of Prom before going.

[Holby]

Knowing so much virtually nothing about our community, I'm sure your expertise is valid. Labelling us as creepy and borderline paedos is almost certainly the best way to get everyone on board with your fresh, hip ideas, right?

The only reason RWL has been successful in the long term is because of its Redwall base. Less than 12 months ago, we were still getting 50 active players, and we've normally hovered around that mark in the past 5 years or so.

We're the only prom of our kind. How many generic proms have there been, thousands? No more than a handful of them are still active.

We have been far more successful in the long term than almost any other prom site. It's got little to do with this place being highly competitive, or even one of the most active prom sites (because it generally has been), and almost everything to do with the Redwall fans who find us.

We haven't permanently held onto most prom players, because of the quirks of our code, the slightly less competitive userbase, and our kid friendly guidelines. While you consider this a weakness, our strength is our Redwall base. It's a big part of why we're still here, after nearly ten years. You'll struggle to find other prom sites that can say the same.

You know nothing about RWL or its successes, so forgive me if I don't think your thread worthy of any serious consideration.

[Shadow]

By the way, I am the one Death brought it up to the first time, and I did ask him to post. I didn't really think it would lead anywhere theme-change related directly since the theme has ties to other RWL communities IIRC, and I told him it would be a tough sell ^_^. I just thought that it would be an interesting discussion that might lead to more ideas of how to make RWL more attractive to what's left of the active prom community.

[Death]

Knowing so much virtually nothing about our community, I'm sure your expertise is valid. Labelling us as creepy and borderline paedos is almost certainly the best way to get everyone on board with your fresh, hip ideas, right?

I never said anyone here was creepy or a borderline pedo, I said the theme is creepy.

The only reason RWL has been successful in the long term is because of its Redwall base. Less than 12 months ago, we were still getting 50 active players, and we've normally hovered around that mark in the past 5 years or so.

And now you are at about 20.

We're the only prom of our kind. How many generic proms have there been, thousands? No more than a handful of them are still active.

About 40, and this one of the least active ones there are now.

We have been far more successful in the long term than almost any other prom site. It's got little to do with this place being highly competitive, or even one of the most active prom sites (because it generally has been), and almost everything to do with the Redwall fans who find us.

No this site has not been more successful than almost any other. This was always a very average Prom in terms of playerbase activity.

We haven't permanently held onto most prom players, because of the quirks of our code, the slightly less competitive userbase, and our kid friendly guidelines. While you consider this a weakness, our strength is our Redwall base. It's a big part of why we're still here, after nearly ten years. You'll struggle to find other prom sites that can say the same.

Your strength is not really doing you any good now, it seems.

You know nothing about RWL or its successes, so forgive me if I don't think your thread worthy of any serious consideration.

I've actually been around here for a quite some time on and off and know plenty about it. This site used to be quite nice and active, now it's not.

All I'm saying is that RWL is obviously not doing very well. The past doesn't matter, whatever you think you know about other sites does not matter, this place is in trouble.

[Firetooth]

Every single person that I know (as in like, have communicated with a fair deal over time) on this site does not really care about Redwall.

Whilst that may be true, most people are only here because they read the books in the first place. Lots of people come here because of the books and stay on long after they lose interest in the books, myself as an example.

And there are probably a few reasons the site is not as active as before. In part the complete overhaul of the turbo code, new ingame theme and global accounts is a lot of change at once, and probably put off some existing players. The site has also been becoming more competitive recently, and I know for a fact this has driven some new players away. I don't think we should attract hardcore promisance players here. They have a capacity to cause trouble.

And I think you forget Redwall is a lot more about the community than the game compared to other promisances. The forum is usually fairly active, and the spa room might as well be another forum. The site may not be the most active, but because the community is strong it has more longevity then other promisance sites.

[Death]

I'm not saying you need to attract hardcore Prom players, that is a small demographic. I'm saying you should all be thinking bigger. A way to reach out and attract a far larger amount of people than kid books will get you.

And I really don't mean to come off as insulting about any of this, hahah.

[Holby]

Knowing so much virtually nothing about our community, I'm sure your expertise is valid. Labelling us as creepy and borderline paedos is almost certainly the best way to get everyone on board with your fresh, hip ideas, right?

I never said anyone here was creepy or a borderline pedo, I said the theme is creepy.

The only reason RWL has been successful in the long term is because of its Redwall base. Less than 12 months ago, we were still getting 50 active players, and we've normally hovered around that mark in the past 5 years or so.

And now you are at about 20.

We're the only prom of our kind. How many generic proms have there been, thousands? No more than a handful of them are still active.

About 40, and this one of the least active ones there are now.

We have been far more successful in the long term than almost any other prom site. It's got little to do with this place being highly competitive, or even one of the most active prom sites (because it generally has been), and almost everything to do with the Redwall fans who find us.

No this site has not been more successful than almost any other. This was always a very average Prom in terms of playerbase activity.

We haven't permanently held onto most prom players, because of the quirks of our code, the slightly less competitive userbase, and our kid friendly guidelines. While you consider this a weakness, our strength is our Redwall base. It's a big part of why we're still here, after nearly ten years. You'll struggle to find other prom sites that can say the same.

Your strength is not really doing you any good now, it seems.

You know nothing about RWL or its successes, so forgive me if I don't think your thread worthy of any serious consideration.

I've actually been around here for a quite some time on and off and know plenty about it. This site used to be quite nice and active, now it's not.

All I'm saying is that RWL is obviously not doing very well. The past doesn't matter, whatever you think you know about other sites does not matter, this place is in trouble.

I don't think promisance has anywhere near the success you seem to think it does. What are the top played ones now? QMT says it has 47 players, Valhall says about the same. Are these not representative of your "massive" promisance player base? Where are you hiding the rest of these players?

Brian Jacques is dead, so Redwall doesn't really have a legacy. That's what makes it difficult, and is probably the main reason we don't have as big a playerbase now.

There's obviously a problem, I just don't think you actually give a darn, or you wouldn't have approached it in this way.

[Firetooth]

No it's fine, I didn't think you were calling me a paedo. :P I can see what you mean that the theme is "creepy," even though I would not phrase it that way. I have no problem with it, but I can see adults not really wanting to sign up. That's the difference between this and other themed promisances, this is aimed at a much younger audience. Long term with Brian Jacques death there may be problems, but Redwall wasn't nearly as popular as it used to be and we had a decent turn out last time I played (discounting last round) so I think in such a short time span the decrease in activity isn't to do with theme.

I think the site could do with a bit more activity, but I really wouldn't ever want in excess of 60 players a round. I like a small, close-knit community more, tbh. Those promis with 100-200 members never seemed too last too long. Plus, the whole site, the themed rounds, the facebook adds, design has been built around redwall. Even if rebranding the site would drastically improve the site (I don't necessarily think it would) I think it would be betraying what the site is built on. You might as well just make a new website if that's what you were trying to do.

[Death]

Are you even paying attention to what I am saying? Because the way you are responding is making me think that you are being overly defensive without reading my posts with a clear head. You said that overall this site -has been- more successful than most Proms, that is untrue. No current Prom game is amazingly active right now, but that really has nothing to do with any of this. That was just my way of saying that RWL can grow. This site has two nice games and a very competent administration and I think the theme is holding you all back.

And no, I do not care either way particularly. I like playing Prom and I think this site has a lot of potential for the future. I see something as a hindrance to that and brought it up thinking that we could at least have a civil conversation about it.

And darn you Firetooth you always post when I post lol. I'm glad you see what I mean with it driving adults off though, at least.

[Firetooth]

And [darn] you Firetooth you always post when I post lol.

It's a talent. ;)

[Death]

I think it would be betraying what the site is built on. You might as well just make a new website if that's what you were trying to do.

This is actually an excellent point I think, and something I can't speak to because, as we all know, I am not into Redwall. It's a matter of if this site is defined as a Promisance or as a Redwall site.

If you guys wanna be a Redwall site though omg you need more series content or something.

[Holby]

Are you even paying attention to what I am saying? Because the way you are responding is making me think that you are being overly defensive without reading my posts with a clear head. You said that overall this site -has been- more successful than most Proms, that is untrue. No current Prom game is amazingly active right now, but that really has nothing to do with any of this. That was just my way of saying that RWL can grow. This site has two nice games and a very competent administration and I think the theme is holding you all back.

And no, I do not care either way particularly. I like playing Prom and I think this site has a lot of potential for the future. I see something as a hindrance to that and brought it up thinking that we could at least have a civil conversation about it.

And [darn] you Firetooth you always post when I post lol. I'm glad you see what I mean with it driving adults off though, at least.

Aside from when RWL started, we never had hundreds of active players. We've always been consistently active, and that's rare.

But if promisance as a game isn't that active (which strangely you seem to agree with now), where are we going to exponentially grow our population from? If we drastically changed RWL, maybe we could draw those prom players, at least for a time. But with the stark differences in our code to what they know, why would they bother? Those that have played in the past haven't stayed, haven't liked many aspects of our game. Why would they want to play it now?

I don't think there's any future, or much hope, of drawing the prom crowd. If there was, I think we would have tried much harder to do it.

We'd have to market it as something entirely different, attracting other demographics. Make it a casual game or something, I don't know. I just don't see there being a relatively simple way to make the changes you suggest.

[Shadow]

I think what is meant by us being successful (correct me if I am wrong Holby/Firetooth) is that the theme does lead to a pretty steady stream of new players. Which to my understanding most other proms do not have, they have either a very dedicated base of veterans or a large influx of players right off the bat but low retention.

It's just that lately the exodus has matched or exceeded the influx. Which I would like to think isn't my fault but probably is, as Firetooth said, because of the pace of changes. So my feeling is that in terms of attracting new players we are not that badly off, though we do attract a younger demographic than the vet base here. It's just that retention has been problematic lately.

Now that 3.0 is more mature and the pace of change is slower I hope that that will change.

As for attracting other prom players being a bad thing, sure, there are some bad apples, but I know a lot of people who are pretty cool who play other proms who I would love to see visit RWL and give it a chance. I am pretty confident that the game is enough to keep a few of them at least, the problem is getting them here in the first place, which is what I was hoping this thread would end up helping brainstorm for.

But yes, the initial concern I voiced to Death when he first messaged me is basically what Holby said: I would be hesitant to make drastic theme changes at the fairly certain risk of alienating the current player base with only a possibility of attracting others. I was hoping for some less drastic ideas of ways to address the prom community image of RWL in general without alienating the player base. Which is a tough question, but we've solved plenty of those before.

[Firetooth]

Yes, that's what I meant by successful. To add to that, I don't think the dev team is really at fault for the changes being done quickly. If they hadn't been done so fast, they might not have been done at all, as Peace and Kilk both had other commitments and real life stuff to worry about shortly afterwards, and Shael has been easing off dev stuff. The ingame theme isn't even quite finished yet. The decrease in activity is only going to be short-term if it was because of the rapid nature of the changes, anyway.

I might be being a bit too prejudice to other prom players, but I remember when I was young and tried valhall, I didn't like them much, because they were basically sweary, trash-talking gamers. And hey, we seem to draw quite a few religious kids here. I have met some cool people at or from other proms, so maybe I'm being a bit narrow-minded. I just think you'd probably lose some of the younger audience the site is aimed at in exchange for more prom players.

[Death]

Aside from when RWL started, we never had hundreds of active players. We've always been consistently active, and that's rare.

But if promisance as a game isn't that active (which strangely you seem to agree with now), where are we going to exponentially grow our population from? If we drastically changed RWL, maybe we could draw those prom players, at least for a time. But with the stark differences in our code to what they know, why would they bother? Those that have played in the past haven't stayed, haven't liked many aspects of our game. Why would they want to play it now?

I don't think there's any future, or much hope, of drawing the prom crowd. If there was, I think we would have tried much harder to do it.

We'd have to market it as something entirely different, attracting other demographics. Make it a casual game or something, I don't know. I just don't see there being a relatively simple way to make the changes you suggest.

This really depends on what one would call active, I don't think the current playerbase is what I would call active. Seems pretty low to me.

You obviously are not paying attention to what I'm saying. I have stated and restated that I am not saying this site needs to be a regular Prom to attract some huge amount of players that are playing themeless games, I am talking about any possibility, especially the possibility of ANOTHER theme. That is why I have mentioned that themed games do so well without depending on Promisance. Like I said, think bigger.

And Firetooth, that is every single website ever basically, lol. Websites are populated by human beings and some people are assholes. But this kid thing is really like... a glaring issue in my mind. A bunch of people in their twenties talking to tweens... yeah that's normal.