This is cool

[Shores of Tripoli]

 They ARE killing machines, the Marine Corps mission is to excel in the proper application of violence in a manner that exemplifies professional efficiency at killing any enemy of the United States of America. I don't see a problem with that. Maybe you would care to explain.

[Genevieve]

I think Peace is wanting you to question why you want to become one of these killing machines.

But I think it all just comes down to a level of nationalism that us non-americans just can't comprehend.

[Gen. Volkov]

IRAQ? You're not there anymore, technically, but you were, and the point remains.

But yes, in Afghanistan, you invaded a country over a fringe group. Many of the people killed in Afghanistan had nothing to do with the attack.

We invaded a country that aid, abetted, and gave outright support to that "fringe group". Since the Taliban aided and abetted Al Qaeda, they had to go. I'm sorry for the people who died in the War in Afghanistan who had nothing to do with that, but I still don't think there was a real alternative to taking down Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, and their support network in the country, namely the Taliban.

Bringing up Iraq doesn't autowin you the argument Shadow. You said "anywhere in the middle east right now". Since we aren't in Iraq anymore, that argument is invalid. Don't pull a Shadow and try to passively aggressively logic chop your way out of making a demonstrably untrue statement.

No, the first one involves an attack, then a period of non-aggression, then you attacking back. You wouldn't win that. Otherwise it is straight up self-defense and it would not apply. The second, well, if you really have such a ridiculous law then you deserve the results, frankly.

If that's how you want to define it, then yeah, I'd lose. But this is geopolitics Shadow, not the legal system. The US has no recourse, no policeman it can turn to and say, "That guy stabbed me". As for the second, we do have such a law, and personally, I don't think it's entirely ridiculous. But that's just me, I could be wrong.

Anyway, you know you'd lose the first one outright, don't pull a volkov and argue this one because you feel like you have to for some reason.

I'd lose under your set of conditions, of course I may see the analogy differently.

... right lol

Yes, I am right. LOL.

They ARE killing machines, the Marine Corps mission is to excel in the proper application of violence in a manner that exemplifies professional efficiency at killing any enemy of the United States of America. I don't see a problem with that. Maybe you would care to explain.

OK dude, I say this because ultimately, I am on your side, but Marines are not "killing machines". What they are, are highly trained, highly disciplined soldiers who will carry out their duty to their utmost. If that involves killing an enemy of the US, they will do so quickly and efficiently, and move on to their objective. If it involves something else, they will do that too, also quickly and efficiently. They are not undisciplined killers, or killing machines, they are Marines. If you want to call them anything other than Marines, I think warrior best fits them. Because they are collectively, some of the best [darn] warriors this planet has yet seen, and certainly the most effective large scale fighting force in the history of warfare. SEALs and Delta may outclass them on a personal or small unit level, but nothing outclasses the effectiveness of the entire Marine Corps.

That said, I, and the other Americans on this site, fully understand and respect your desire to become a Marine. I thought about joining the service myself, awhile back. Still might.

But I think it all just comes down to a level of nationalism that us non-americans just can't comprehend.

I don't think it's really nationalism, so much as a desire to give back. Ask not what your country can do for you, etc.

[Genevieve]

I don't think it's really nationalism, so much as a desire to give back. Ask not what your country can do for you, etc.

But what you can do for your country. Exactly.

[Peace Alliance]

It's nationalism.

@Lucy, I have argued about the ethnocentricity (so how much they think the world revolves around their culture) of a lot of the things said by Americans on these forums. There does not seem to be any hope.


It's funny that you are asking me why I don't like war. It's shocking how perverse your ideology must be when it treats war as sacred. It is dirty, tragic, aweful, and it ought to be avoided. I didn't start posting in this topic because I wanted to argue that - in most of the world this is understood. But if you really want me to start talking about why I am so 'anti-war' I can do that. Apparently I'm the guy on these forums who blows your minds with all this talk about love and peace... I don't necessarily want to have some silly debate about it though, and this isn't UMD. So here's a video of one of my heroes (this time not Jesus, promise).

[Rakefur]

I don't believe anyone said anything about you being anti-war.

I want to know why you are anti-Marines.

[Peace Alliance]

Never said I was. In fact, if you look at my posts in this topic you should recognize that what I was leading up to was my criticism of the war-propagandized mentality that trip seems to have. I was trying to get him to consider other solutions to problems. I don't think it's necessarily a problem with marines, it's a problem with an ideology.

[Shores of Tripoli]

OK dude, I say this because ultimately, I am on your side, but Marines are not "killing machines". What they are, are highly trained, highly disciplined soldiers who will carry out their duty to their utmost. If that involves killing an enemy of the US, they will do so quickly and efficiently, and move on to their objective. If it involves something else, they will do that too, also quickly and efficiently. They are not undisciplined killers, or killing machines, they are Marines. If you want to call them anything other than Marines, I think warrior best fits them. Because they are collectively, some of the best [darn] warriors this planet has yet seen, and certainly the most effective large scale fighting force in the history of warfare. SEALs and Delta may outclass them on a personal or small unit level, but nothing outclasses the effectiveness of the entire Marine Corps.

That said, I, and the other Americans on this site, fully understand and respect your desire to become a Marine. I thought about joining the service myself, awhile back. Still might.

I disagree, I think killing machine is a great compliment to a Marine. There job is to kill, and to say that they are so good at there job that they have it down to a level comparable to a machine, is in my eyes a compliment.

[Gen. Volkov]

I disagree, I think killing machine is a great compliment to a Marine. There job is to kill, and to say that they are so good at there job that they have it down to a level comparable to a machine, is in my eyes a compliment.

Ah, there is your confusion. A soldiers job, a Marines job is not to kill. Their job is to follow the lawful orders of their superiors, which may or may not involve killing. There are more Marines who never fired a shot in anger than there are Marines who did, and even fewer still Marines who have actually killed someone. The Marines have a bit less on the back end than the rest of the services, that is to say, the support network any military organization requires to do its job. The Navy does a lot of the stuff the Marines would otherwise have to do for themselves, but there are still a very large number of Marines who never saw combat during their time in the service.

But what you can do for your country. Exactly.

Well, maybe civic nationalism, but it's not nationalism as Europeans know the word. There is no xenophobia involved, no sense of a shared ethnic heritage. A certain amount of patriotism, to be sure, because Americans are proud to be American, in general, but we are such a large and diverse country that there could never be the kind nationalism here that was present in Europe during the middle of the last century.

@Lucy, I have argued about the ethnocentricity (so how much they think the world revolves around their culture) of a lot of the things said by Americans on these forums. There does not seem to be any hope.

You're full of crap. Seriously. Do you realize just how many ethnic groups live in the US? Canadians, in comparison to the US, are a completely homogenous culture. The US is a nation of 300 million people, we have citizens that come from literally every other country in the world. There is no "American ethnic group". There are three major ethnic groupings in the US, whites, blacks, and hispanics, and within each group, there are yet more subdivisions. For example, I have Polish, German, Irish, English, and Scottish heritage, and my cultural background is completely different from someone with Italian or Greek heritage. There is something of an American national identity, and people from every ethnic grouping do take pride in being American, but there is no American ethnic group, and certainly no ethnocentricity.

Oh, and while I acknowledge that many Americans think that the world revolves around our culture, that's only due a century of being the most powerful and influential nation on the planet. You cannot deny the influence our culture has on everyone elses. Our pop stars are the worlds pop stars, our blockbuster movies are the world's blockbuster movies. You can find kids in almost any country wearing Levi jeans and t-shirts with American pop culture stuff on them. English is the international language of science and business because the US prominence in those areas. (Well, the British started that trend in business, but in science the international language was German for quite awhile.) The world doesn't revolve around our culture, but it certainly is heavily influenced by it.

[Shores of Tripoli]

 Killing in anger and killing detached is still killing just the same.

[Peace Alliance]

Summary:

A complete misinterpretation of the word ethnocentrism... Followed by a very wonderful explanation: 'Americans think they are the center of the universe because we so totally are'

[Gen. Volkov]

Killing in anger and killing detached is still killing just the same.

I think you misunderstood my point. Firing a weapon "in anger" has nothing to do with the emotional state of the person. It means whether the weapon was fired on the battlefield or not. All Marines fire thousands of rounds in training, but only a fraction of those ever fire their weapons on the battlefield, or "in anger".

A complete misinterpretation of the word ethnocentrism... Followed by a very wonderful explanation: 'Americans think they are the center of the universe because we so totally are'

Nope, don't think so Peace. Unless you define an ethnic group in a different way than the rest of the world. Ethnic nationalism, ethnocentrism applies only when there is a fairly uniform ethnic group. Americans are anything but uniform. Oh, and while you can make fun of it, can you actually deny anything I stated about the US influence on the world?

[Peace Alliance]

I'll pull some definitions (and maybe in the process of looking up my definitions I find a more appropriate word) when I get home later.

[Genevieve]

Well, maybe civic nationalism, but it's not nationalism as Europeans know the word. There is no xenophobia involved, no sense of a shared ethnic heritage. A certain amount of patriotism, to be sure, because Americans are proud to be American, in general, but we are such a large and diverse country that there could never be the kind nationalism here that was present in Europe during the middle of the last century.

It is purely nationalism, you are just redefining it on the basis of other examples.

[Gen. Volkov]

It is purely nationalism, you are just redefining it on the basis of other examples.

It's not purely nationalism though. Americans don't generally want their country to advance or whatever at the expense of other countries. There is certainly a goodly amount of patriotism, but I don't think its excessive, and it's not at all based on any sort of ethnic grouping like nationalism in Europe was. It's not xenophobic, and it's not incompatible with the ideals on which this country was founded. If its any sort of nationalism, its liberal or civic nationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_nationalism