Market

[Peace Alliance]

Hard for a solo indy to win, likewise hard for a solo leaderer to win.

[Shadow]

Not really, solo cashers are the powerhouses most recently. The merc change was designed to make solo cashing a little more interactive and force more dependence on the public market through the round. We won't be sure it worked until the end of the round when the buying actually starts, but I am quite pleased with how active the public market has been so far.

[cloud]

Not really, solo cashers are the powerhouses most recently. The merc change was designed to make solo cashing a little more interactive and force more dependence on the public market through the round. We won't be sure it worked until the end of the round when the buying actually starts, but I am quite pleased with how active the public market has been so far.

I'm not a fan of being forced to give money to my enemies.

[Shadow]

Who said that it had to be enemies? The dynamic was that a solo player could store up cash all round, never once interact with anybody else except to do sterile land grabs and be land grabbed, and then win the round buying out mercs, which removes all that cash from the game. How is that fun?

The hope was that since cashers would be more dependent (not that they are not entirely dependent, since mercs still work, and camps make them work very well) on the public market, and that since it would take longer to buy out at the end of the round, that cashers would have incentive to do two things: first, to spend money during the round and get it flowing around the game, and secondly, to interact with people and form alliances so that the money they spent on the public market was really not going to their enemies.

Now, if this is not working then post feedback and such, but so far it seems to be working well. The public market is very active, and prices are reasonable. The only complaint that I have is that it is too active - I think we will have to increase the amount that can be put on the market to keep up with demand.

[Wolf Snare]

I was in a hurry earlier, allow me to elaborate a bit so I don't just sound negative without reason:

You're ruining strats that have been around since the beginning of time and they are no longer going to be functional if we keep going at this rate. you cant just completely destroy massing strategies by limiting food storage to a measly 25% whilst destroying mercenaries completely, just to fulfill your dream of an active market. Yes, the market is too active, aside from the food that often clogs it the majority of the time.

You have to understand Shadow, you are changing the entire setup of the game by making these changes. You take away the sole power of the common leader player and put it in the hands of the lazy industrial strategist. By limiting food storage, you allow indies to sack away throughout their run and fund their entire run for free--in some cases, they produce without cost and end with more resources than they started with; this is for lack of a better word, absolutely retarded. what's worse, the altered merc availability forces leaders  to further fund their enemies by buying their troops. Cash and food massing are now, on a larger scale, useless.

The blow to mercenaries was far too harsh, I see no real reason to make less skiffs available than rats other than to enforce your market scheme-- it's working, so level out mercenaries to how it was and increase refill rate to at least 3/4 of what it was, though i suggest it be returned to normal personally. This still needs to be a possible strategy. I recommend also raising the amount of food you are able to put on the market to at least 50%, and I suggest it be possible to withdraw your stuff if you want for the same penalty that has always been in place.

I understand your logic behind these changes was basically to force the market to become active and stop it from simply being a storehouse, but as is you are seriously damaging certain aspects of the game. Trust me, there can be a happy median between storing and an active market. The game dynamics are changing and forcing people to play as a team to stand a chance. This was already a big enough problem before, but if you think you fixed it by lowering aid credits within clans and implementing the market changes, you're very wrong.

You need to look at this from a new persons perspective too; the game relies so heavily on teamwork to succeed now-- more so than ever, I believe-- that it scares off people before they even get a chance to understand the game. I personally watched it happen this set with two first timers I was trying to teach. They got fed up and left, and I believe this to be an indirect result of the market changes, as game play is actually forced to roll with the changes to even compete with clans. If you think forcing the game to play as a unit is a good thing for the game in any way, again, rethink things from a perspective other than "the guy being aided to the top every run".

Solo players need to have a fighting chance. If you hadn't noticed, which I reckon you haven't as your clan are the ones committing this most drastically-- it's [darn] near impossible for a leader player to log on and buy up mercs to break an empire that's been aided up. the pitiful state you left mercenaries in leaves people no real chance, as a result it's actually ruining solo leader strategies. I truly believe we were headed in the right direction last round, however this round we've gone way too far with the changes.

You have to keep in mind how utterly fragile the game is. Think of the butterfly effect, one small thing completely throws off another. With you so hastily implementing changes with little thought to consequence,you're going to ruin the game in a hurry. I daresay I'm beginning to think our community has fallen into totalitarian rule.

[Sevah]

Instead of crippling solo players think about the overall design. The changes have symptoms, makes the game have less finishing potential for any respectful strategy. The clearest way to dominate this game is just as Volkov said. Indiers feeding a leaderer.

Without trying to insult the admins, are you retarded?

Go back to the old code and upgrade it. See what kind of theme you come out with. Most the recent changes are done to fix a symptom not the problem. Obviously the veterans never get heard and whenever the wrong person says the right idea the game goes in the opposite direction. Suggestions are commonly diverted, argued or neglected

From now on I'm gonna type my suggestions in ALL CAPS.

MERC REFILL RATE NEEDS TO BE SLIGHTLY IMPROVED, PRICES DECREASED.

SACK SHOULD HAVE A MAXIMUM (COULD BE SET TO INCREASE AT EACH WEEK TIL ROUND END)

INDIES SHOULD BE NURFED

[Wolf Snare]

I think Sevah is onto something with the sack suggestion, and I rather like the idea of it increasing throughout the round. Just as stoat used to be the best strategy by miles, and pressganging as a wildcat years before that, I believe you've made it so the only sensible strategy is joining up with a clan and being indied to a safe (and very boring) victory, as volk said. No one likes a lame round where one clan dominates through thoughtless aid passing; its boring, it's stupid, it quite simply sucks. So why are we strongly leaning in that direction?

[Shadow]

Since leaders are now more exposed via the end of market storing, reducing sack could be a good idea. Increasing through the round would only apply to turbo though, and wherever possible, changes to the internal workings of the game should be applicable to both servers so facilitate code maintenance.

I guess it's a question of which you prefer - boring, solo, non-interactive play, or boring clan play ^_^ What the changes are trying to do, perhaps not perfectly yet, is to encourage interaction without forcing clans and avoid both extremes. If we've pushed it too far in one direction, and I'm not yet convinced that we have, we can adjust over the next few rounds.

[Wolf Snare]

I don't have the time or desire whatsoever to split hairs with you in the other topic you made, at least not tonight. I don't care if the changes have been in talk for a year now, I haven't been around for the majority of the last few years and I certainly haven't sifted through pages and pages of hypothetical situations and far fetched suggestions; I take a more cause and effect feel for things, and the game is becoming more and more flawed each round you think you're "fixing things".

bring back the old code and put up a new server, I'll just play there.

[windhound]

First off, there's no pleasing some people.  None.
Some have been complaining about leader players being too strong for a while now, and now that indies get a boost in the form of a stronger sack and slightly nerfed mercs its OH GAWD INDIES ARE TOO STRONG.
The way leader players are right now an indy can never, ever win a round.

Most of you have never seen the code, the formulas that run the game.  They're finicky and hard to get just right.  Little changes (even a .01 modifier) can have a gigantic effect; that's why we're running tests on turbo and its been stated quite plainly that changes are being made.
Please, feel free to offer constructive criticism.  Its what helps us get the numbers right and find a good balance. 
If you feel your comments aren't being taken under consideration, there's a chance that they were just terrible ideas.

Changes are important for the game.  Its going on 10 years old now, and I can say with some confidence that if no changes were ever made to the code we wouldn't have much of a player base right now.  Some changes will be great, others will suck.  But odds are good there's another player who thinks the changes you think suck are great and visa versa.  I hated the nerfing of the Stoat, but I understand why it was done. 
And believe it or not, the changes are being made carefully.  If you wanted to see drastic, game crushing changes go back to what Peace did to the race chart -- the race benefits went from at most a 20% bonus to over a 200% bonus.  That was a major change, and yet the game survived. 

Also, I don't understand the "food clogged market" statement.  Yes, there's generally a bit of food on the market.  I fail to see how this effects anything, just scroll past it.  Its like saying I hate the wine section at the supermarket, I want the sodas -- but they're in different, easily identifiable isles.  They're even colored for goodness sakes.
Also, on both reg and turbo food is one of the smaller sections.  There are far more Stoats listed, so lets complain about the Stoat clogged market instead.

For an example of why some of the changes are being looked at, look at what Holbs did several rounds back in turbo.  It was actually a fairly active round, several clans going at it.  Holby sat quietly and resource massed, storing the food on the market.  At the last moment he pulled the food, bought out his mercs, and skyrocketed to the top.  I believe he actually won that round by solo food massing quietly in the corner. 

Lastly, I'm sorry, but no newbie is ever going to win a round unless they're clanned or working with a group.  Its fairly rare that a solo player wins a round (and when they do, its usually done by ^) -- its simple math, a clan has the sheer blunt force of turns behind it.  Add cooperation and its over.  The only way to fix this is to not allow cooperation, remove aiding and clans.
There are some games built around teamwork, and in this one it certainly helps.  You can solo and do quite well, a good top 10, even top 5 finish is quite doable.  If I actually play I can usually manage top 5 just soloing, and I'm a mediocre player. 
If there are some players that only play to be #1 I'm sorry, this is not the game for them. 
Striving to be #1 is always good.  Ragequit because you didn't get it?  No thanks.

[Briar]

Code Select Expand

[quote]
Most of you have never seen the code

This is true. Why?

[windhound]

There's actually an old code dump floating around somewhere, and if asked I'll usually dig up a relevant portion and send it on.  PHP is reasonably human readable, but some knowledge of programming is required.
Promi is licensed GPL iirc - meaning any changes are supposed to be released, but Retto (or Boze?) got an exception for RWL from the creator a long while back.

Releasing a full version is actually on the to-do list still, but backburner'd. 

[Alazar is Back]

I agree with a lot of what Snare is saying, the market store thing makes the farmer stratgey almost worthless without the leader defense. This game has always been dominated by clans that work together well(at least since I have been around for like 5 years now). So why push it even more in that direction? That doesnt make any sense.

[Shadow]

It's true that both farmer and casher are comparatively weak at the moment, and that the farmer is not helped by the market change. The farmer concept doesn't mesh well with the dominant leader offense that RWL has, independently of the market setup, which is why we have more or less put it on the back burner until we can address the underlying issue. Even if they were allowed to market store, they could be thefted pretty easily. Those strategies are really tricky to balance out, but I don't think allowing them to market store is the answer. If you end up playing them and have suggestions to make them more competitive, please let us know.

Casher.. eh. The strategy was always micro-intensive, and so it was always underused even when it is strong, which it isn't. I think we'll have to change how leaderless cashing works at a pretty basic level before it sees much use even if it is strong, which it currently isn't.  I tried to model this race after seeing it used at FaF but I think I did it rather poorly, having limited experience with it from other proms. If you have more and can suggest improvements, please let me know.

That being said, the farmer race is a really newbie friendly race that can help them learn the basics of the game without having to worry about resource management too much, so if you are recruiting, encourage people to try that one out first :)



In regards to the anti-clan argument, I would like to point out that a loose coalition of unclanned leaders is currently much stronger than a similarly sized clan of indies feeding leaders. By benefit of having solid leader defense through the round and a max of 22 sacks per day, they can take it pretty much every time without too much work. Teams are always going to be stronger than solo because ~turns~, but leader teams without a clan are currently top dog.

[Kilkenne]

I don't have the time or desire whatsoever to split hairs with you in the other topic you made, at least not tonight. I don't care if the changes have been in talk for a year now, I haven't been around for the majority of the last few years and I certainly haven't sifted through pages and pages of hypothetical situations and far fetched suggestions; I take a more cause and effect feel for things, and the game is becoming more and more flawed each round you think you're "fixing things".

bring back the old code and put up a new server, I'll just play there.

You are probably the most useful moderator ever. Indeed, your status as someone who has been around forever means that you can throw stones without having to be constructive anymore at any time, right? Get over yourself. You are one of the people with the tools to do something, instead of slinging crap, if your reputation is to be believed.