Market Discussion

[Sharptooh]

I think this is something important and big that really needs proper discussion on the forums, the market has been a hotly debated subject in the past forever but I don't think there's been a coherent discussion about it yet, just a couple of topics that were hijacked to talk about the market; so I think this should be that discussion.

Personally, I would hate to see the market go as I think Shadow suggested 'might' happen recently (I'm pretty sure you said it somewhere)

Yes the market has become something it shouldn't have, but getting rid of it would be a real shame, and would get rid of one of the few very variable aspects of playing, the market brings a lot to the table in a number of ways.

And while the market has become something it shouldn't have, instead of trying forcibly to change it back to what it should be (which would be incredibly difficult) I think it could be balanced as it is.

Bringing back market theft might be a start, the time lapse between purchasing the goods and getting the money make it nigh on impossible to do, and this means that leaders are even more OP in the sense that even though the 20% tax will hurt their holdings on the market, at least it is safe unless they're killed, or someone with hours to waste can be bothered to market theft them.

Bring back market thefts might also balance the game a bit more for indiers, with the new changes to sack, this would now be a possibility for them too. Besides which indiers could (can) use the market as a small storehouse type thing to increase their netcap.

Doing other simple things like reducing the percentage amount of food that can be sold on the market ( as far as I can tell it is substantially more than the percentage of troops that can be sold there ) would balance things further.

Me and Firetooth were also commenting on how often we check prices between mercs and the market, and I thought it might be useful to display your current merc prices at the top of the market, on maybe in a column of their own or something, just an idea.

I don't mean to sound full of myself either (as I always feel I do when I make topics like this) so please don't take this as me sounding that, I'm sure there are a lot of counter arguments to my suggestions.

[Shadow]

Nobody is talking about getting rid of the market, nor have they. You must have misread something I said.

Bringing back market theft might be a start, the time lapse between purchasing the goods and getting the money make it nigh on impossible to do, and this means that leaders are even more OP in the sense that even though the 20% tax will hurt their holdings on the market, at least it is safe unless they're killed, or someone with hours to waste can be bothered to market theft them.

Thing is, leaders benefit both ways. They benefit from market theft being there because they can market theft indies all they please. They benefit from it not being there because they can market store safely.

The solution is not to bring back market theft, it is to eliminate market storing.

Me and Firetooth were also commenting on how often we check prices between mercs and the market, and I thought it might be useful to display your current merc prices at the top of the market, on maybe in a column of their own or something, just an idea.

Not a bad idea.

[Pippin]

i agree something needs to be done about this, as it's effectively become a safehouse for the round with a 20% fee.
bringing back market theft would be a good idea, but for solo indys i dont think it would work as they'd need a lot of cash to begin with.
and yes reducing the amount of food thats able to be put on the market would help, but that would only slow the process down and mean leaders would just aid the rest away or hold into it and raise defenses.

i like the ideas though something should definitely be done

[Sharptooh]

Sorry Shadow I misread this:

Once market pull is removed/nerfed, it won't be a problem I think.

For this:

Once market is removed/nerfed, it won't be a problem I think.

Easy mistake to make  . . . kind of  :-\

Thing is, leaders benefit both ways. They benefit from market theft being there because they can market theft indies all they please. They benefit from it not being there because they can market store safely.

The solution is not to bring back market theft, it is to eliminate market storing.

Surely indies benefit as they can market theft from leaders

Reducing the food percentage able to store on the market could also help

And I haven't thought this through at all (so there's probably lots of ways this could go wrong) but maybe we could make loyalty sellable on the market? I remember whenever I indy I always end up with a few mil that I never use

[Pippin]

buying loyalty would be a nice addition but, if you gather land to produce leaders, your most likely producing enough loyalty. would still help though.

[Shadow]

Surely indies benefit as they can market theft from leaders

Not really - 21 sacks only takes 10% of their resources, so an indy market thefting an unclanned leader is only going to get back 10% of their investment. Not a fair deal.

Reducing the food percentage able to store on the market could also help

Again - once market storing is gone, this will be a non-issue.

And I haven't thought this through at all (so there's probably lots of ways this could go wrong) but maybe we could make loyalty sellable on the market? I remember whenever I indy I always end up with a few mil that I never use

Could try it as a theme and see how it goes. But it comes so fast to leader players that I don't imagine it would be worth much.

[Pippin]

you keep mentioning once storage is gone, what are you planning on doing with this?

[Sharptooh]

And I haven't thought this through at all (so there's probably lots of ways this could go wrong) but maybe we could make loyalty sellable on the market? I remember whenever I indy I always end up with a few mil that I never use

Could try it as a theme and see how it goes. But it comes so fast to leader players that I don't imagine it would be worth much.

As far as I know most leaders do one loyalty run, then one producing run, if enough loyalty were at a cheap enough price it might allow them to cut out one loyalty run and add one producing run

That and I've run out of loyalty a few times with like 70 turns left, can be annoying.

Surely indies benefit as they can market theft from leaders

Not really - 21 sacks only takes 10% of their resources, so an indy market thefting an unclanned leader is only going to get back 10% of their investment. Not a fair deal.

I know this isn't really market related but it is in a roundabout way.

Would it be possible to increase the number of attacks that indiers can do before someone is maxed, i.e. indy can do as many attacks as a leader can +9? I know there's obviously many issues with this, just an idea

[Pippin]

we could increase even more the amount taken in sacks also

[abartell]

I don't like adding the power of sack because sacks are noobish

[Pippin]

i guess your a leader then :-*

[Shadow]

Once market storing is gone is a nice phrase :) I have the plans to do it, the issue is time and testing, which is in short supply at the moment. We made good use of Shael's activity burst, but we didn't get through everything :)

I don't like changing the game to reflect strategies. Rather, strategies should reflect the game. There are issues with deciding when someone is an indy and when they are not.

[Pippin]

mqybe if weekend servers were brought back with 500 turns a minute it would help you test you thingys?

[Sharptooh]

Once market storing is gone is a nice phrase :) I have the plans to do it, the issue is time and testing, which is in short supply at the moment. We made good use of Shael's activity burst, but we didn't get through everything :)

I can test stuff if you need, summer holidays now  :P

I can kind of understand PHP too . . . a little

There are issues with deciding when someone is an indy and when they are not.

Yeah Firetooth said this, I can think of a few ways to do this, but it might end up being a bit complicated  :-\

[Holby]

Most of these ideas seem to be very knee-jerk reactions.

The concept we've discussed concerning the market, means it would be used as a market. Things wouldn't be stored, they would be sold for a default price after a certain amount of time. That would eliminate the storing problems, and make prices more competitive.

Indyers can't use Sack to market theft.

Making loyalty a buyable commodity has the potential to screw so many things up. Why would a leader player bother making loyalty of their own if it's a better use of turns to just buy it and cash instead? It would have to be cheaper than the return, which makes any non-resource producing run pointless.