Leader suicides

[Kilkenne]

Basically I think you just have to tread more carefully than most, which honestly sucks. Same as anyone does who might have access to sensitive information. ~Pressganglol~

Anyhow, I'm not sure that the low roll thing is a problem. If you are suiciding a normal troop type, you can also suffer from abysmally low rolls. The good thing, in that situation is that you also apparently lost fewer leaders, so that it's not like you (for example) lost 1,000,000 leaders suiciding and the defender lost nothing, assuming that they actually have a leader or ten million. The other option I think you have would be to set the parameters up from a possibility of 1:5 so something less random, but make it like a ratio of one between 2 and 4, so you'll never get a horribly low roll, but you'll also never get one of those really high ones, either.

To me, though, that kind of smacks of over-regulation, because a random aspect is a part of the game.

[Shadow]

I'm not sure I made what I meant clear:

say that the attacker can lose at most 1 million leaders in an attack. Then the defender can lose at most 5 million, if they both roll max rolls.

However, say that attacker only loses 1 leader, and the defender rolls medium and would normally lose 2 million. Then the defender's losses get capped at 5. So on a roll by roll basis, the defender cannot lose more than 5 times what the defender rolls. However, if the attacker rolls medium and loses 500k, the defender can still get a low roll and lose only 1 leader.

So basically, the defender gets two chances to lose a small amount - if the attacker loses not much, and also if they simply get a low roll themselves.

Question is, do we want this? It is not a bad thing by itself, it just depends how much of an advantage we want to give to the defender.

[Kilkenne]

Oh, alright. That makes sense to me now. I think that it's probably fair for the defender to get an advantage like that, especially if it's just random, because of the potential that they lose a very high number as well. It keeps the game interesting. I know there are people out there who probably hate RNG, and normally I'm one of them, but it would take a long time to agree on set values for attack/defense, you could also use numbers then to approximate (well, yo ucan now, but it'd actually be accurate) how much stuff people have without espying them, which I'm not sure is a direction that we want to go in. If it is indeed a direction we want to head in, then I can live with that as well.

[Holby]

Oh, alright. That makes sense to me now. I think that it's probably fair for the defender to get an advantage like that, especially if it's just random, because of the potential that they lose a very high number as well. It keeps the game interesting.

Agree

[Holby]

Apparently the fix is in reg. I am posting all of the suicides to see to what extent you guys think they're working. I began with 11 million leaders on 10k land.


21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 223423 Leaders, losing 148400 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 343377 Leaders, losing 170347 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 88592 Leaders, losing 26286 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 243490 Leaders, losing 287895 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 267570 Leaders, losing 50539 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 241350 Leaders, losing 291364 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 115794 Leaders, losing 144919 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 136420 Leaders, losing 107689 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 150708 Leaders, losing 4194 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 15820 Leaders, losing 79100 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 4294 Leaders, losing 21470 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 247377 Leaders, losing 2578 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 22134 Leaders, losing 77031 Leaders in the process.
21.4 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 164085 Leaders, losing 204381 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 231483 Leaders, losing 165010 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 205851 Leaders, losing 144308 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 12175 Leaders, losing 60875 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 101444 Leaders, losing 126066 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 88295 Leaders, losing 161664 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 61380 Leaders, losing 27078 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 125394 Leaders, losing 164518 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 113555 Leaders, losing 44405 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 161320 Leaders, losing 210954 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 136095 Leaders, losing 126673 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 4737 Leaders, losing 23685 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 57617 Leaders, losing 84025 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 43935 Leaders, losing 20273 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 117287 Leaders, losing 913 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 98178 Leaders, losing 97020 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 52263 Leaders, losing 215556 Leaders in the process.

1.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 48448 Leaders, losing 73430 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 39534 Leaders, losing 144982 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 21086 Leaders, losing 105430 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 120419 Leaders, losing 166966 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 12253 Leaders, losing 61265 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 58716 Leaders, losing 193467 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 20505 Leaders, losing 102525 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 35553 Leaders, losing 160959 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 17251 Leaders, losing 86255 Leaders in the process.
21.3 hours ago    You find Etendue (#119) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 55649 Leaders, losing 23730 Leaders in the process.

You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 369090 Leaders, losing 48760 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 43630 Leaders, losing 106251 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 22916 Leaders, losing 106334 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 165377 Leaders, losing 56891 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 406853 Leaders, losing 155822 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 215161 Leaders, losing 89259 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 122749 Leaders, losing 101368 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 170304 Leaders, losing 133956 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 122790 Leaders, losing 9261 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 289511 Leaders, losing 163917 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 97429 Leaders, losing 134209 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 221157 Leaders, losing 12934 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 122146 Leaders, losing 112762 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 196616 Leaders, losing 79060 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 178877 Leaders, losing 91780 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 101248 Leaders, losing 69965 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 17696 Leaders, losing 88480 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 24516 Leaders, losing 116682 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 97218 Leaders, losing 19874 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 163690 Leaders, losing 103964 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 130838 Leaders, losing 10036 Leaders in the process.
20.8 hours ago    You find Funeral (#113) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 80594 Leaders, losing 30249 Leaders in the process.

You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 230557 Leaders, losing 8088 Leaders in the process.
20.5 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 255357 Leaders, losing 53985 Leaders in the process.
20.4 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 36032 Leaders, losing 93989 Leaders in the process.
20.4 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 103203 Leaders, losing 75907 Leaders in the process.
20.4 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 26351 Leaders, losing 13749 Leaders in the process.
20.4 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 191642 Leaders, losing 116699 Leaders in the process.
20.4 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 227808 Leaders, losing 91623 Leaders in the process.
20.4 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 28527 Leaders, losing 21015 Leaders in the process.
20.4 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 120365 Leaders, losing 71580 Leaders in the process.
20.4 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 88653 Leaders, losing 12039 Leaders in the process.
20.4 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 169585 Leaders, losing 20491 Leaders in the process.
20.4 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 65790 Leaders, losing 77920 Leaders in the process.
20.4 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 55352 Leaders, losing 18067 Leaders in the process.
20.4 hours ago    You find Shadows and Dust (#240) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 139700 Leaders, losing 42949 Leaders in the process.

You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 2944 Leaders, losing 14720 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 5328 Leaders, losing 26640 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 6673 Leaders, losing 33365 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 1816 Leaders, losing 9080 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 5586 Leaders, losing 27930 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 3642 Leaders, losing 18210 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 2755 Leaders, losing 9234 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 1316 Leaders, losing 6580 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 3099 Leaders, losing 15495 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 595 Leaders, losing 2975 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 2792 Leaders, losing 13960 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 133 Leaders, losing 665 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 3358 Leaders, losing 16790 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 2532 Leaders, losing 12660 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 806 Leaders, losing 4030 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 1488 Leaders, losing 7440 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 682 Leaders, losing 3410 Leaders in the process.
20.3 hours ago    You find Ruddertail (#107) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 3261 Leaders, losing 16305 Leaders in the process.

You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 541009 Leaders, losing 46994 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 147462 Leaders, losing 40556 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 7000 Leaders, losing 35000 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 659570 Leaders, losing 64899 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 580282 Leaders, losing 72175 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 287779 Leaders, losing 32185 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 234618 Leaders, losing 66594 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 356180 Leaders, losing 36507 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 18682 Leaders, losing 82509 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 423147 Leaders, losing 69640 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 339528 Leaders, losing 81020 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 1059 Leaders, losing 5295 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 325298 Leaders, losing 80514 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 43300 Leaders, losing 62140 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 182491 Leaders, losing 67019 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 20280 Leaders, losing 66399 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 66162 Leaders, losing 21994 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 279709 Leaders, losing 61400 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 27074 Leaders, losing 55382 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 232125 Leaders, losing 30076 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 111442 Leaders, losing 7699 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 151310 Leaders, losing 72932 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 55395 Leaders, losing 1007 Leaders in the process.
20.1 hours ago    You find Simplicity (#14) losing a fight with your leaders!    You killed 248197 Leaders, losing 26395 Leaders in the process.

[Kilkenne]

You had 23k land, and the leaders were on 20k since Etendue hit you twice with rats for 3k for god only knows what reason. (after Etendue's run)

[Holby]

It seems mostly 1:1 against other leader players, with defense in favour.

Against indyers, it seems to work quite well in favour of the attacker. Note Ruddertail attacks.


EDIT Oh really? My bad. Thought I had less.

[Neobaron]

Not mostly 1:1... not at all. Will do numbers here in a few.

[Holby]

I will grant that it's not in that first lot of attacks.

But the rest of it evens out, and when it doesn't, I'm gambling it's because I didn't have that many leaders left to destroy.

It could definitely do with some tweaking, but at least it works, especially with the indy suicides.

[Shadow]

Note that if you had had, say, 100m leaders, then the losses on your part would have been much higher than the attacker losses most of the way through.

I think what we should do is this:

attacker losses = rand(0, 0.1*attacker leaders + 1)
defender losses = rand(0, min(0.03*defender leaders, 5*attacker losses)+1)

That would give the advantage slightly more to the defender when an indy attacks so that they don't always max out, but still have the same low damage potential.

[Neobaron]

So the most a defender can lose is 3%, while the most an attacker can lose is 10%?

Seems a bit skewed.

---

Tot: Funeral 3901316 -  Holby 1793054

Avg: Funeral 177332 - Holby 81502

~2:1 kill to death ratio as defender for the attacks I made, and you had 200k more leaders than me at the time Holby. I think this is perfectly fine for the defender.

[Shadow]

Just imagine if Holby had 30m leaders though. You could attack him with 3mil, and kill off 5:1 more than you are losing. Just because you lost more here doesn't mean it is always defender's advantage.

[Kilkenne]

I don't know that it's right to basically make it so the more leaders you have the more impenetrable you become. I thought this was the direction we wanted to move away from with the previous round of reverts/changes, and now we're moving back towards it? Maybe I just don't understand.

[Neobaron]

But in ideal (ie mirror) conditions, it IS always defender's advantage.

I don't think anyone is questioning that logic.

I think it's mostly that you don't want to give the defender such an advantage that hitting them is completely futile.

10% max to 3% max it nuts in 'ideal' situations.

[Shadow]

I very much disagree. It just means that an unclanned leader takedown on someone at 175 leader/land ratio is a 2 person job.