Feedback on changes

[Shadow]

Since the changes have been up for a few rounds now, what do people think? I personally like what we did to indy - production value is lower, but costs are also so much lower that it is not much more difficult to compete. I think that farmer and casher could use a bit of a boost, but all in all I am happy with the way changes are headed. Anyone else? Tweaks that should be made?

[Firetooth]

Eh, from what I've seen farmers/cashers output isn't high enough considering they have little/no defennce. But that's just me., I think a round with no barracks/huts would be a good idea, as suggested in the turbo themes.

Other then that, I agree the changes so far are good, but I'll once again say that Wildcat needs overhauling, however I appreciate that is a big task.

[Twilight Shadow]

When did the change in networth calculation change?

Food * 10 / 525

From 10/500

well others were 500 too but are 525 now...And why did they change?

[Shadow]

the number in the denominator is the base buy price of rats on mercs. It changed to fix the troop loop. The change in net is less than 5% in either irection for each resource type.

[Twilight Shadow]

I know about the little change in the netting was just wondering how it came about and such. Thanks! ;)

[Firetooth]

I know this is radical, but I think team indy should be weakened further when/if solo indy becomes more viable, because this round had quite a low amount of competitive solo players. Largely due to Worship being so huge, but I still haven't seen much solo activity for a while. Plus, for solo indy to become more widespread I think it would make sense to make team indy slightly weaker to encourage solo play.

There may be problems with this though, thoughts?

[Kilkenne]

bawwwww worship bawwwww they are the worst people ever in fact they're not people at all they are internet jerks

The changes to aid tokens now consume another person's tokens when you send them aid, so this is effectively a team indy nerf, while leaving solo indy alone. This is how it was explained to me, that is. It's probably not a bad thing.

In related news, if we make team indy more viable from a solo net/winning perspective, it's going to be pretty tough to beat, unless you murder them down on the regular. I run to about 600m or so when I run on Reg unaided unaided (I've been solo indying on reg, as has Faux Fur), and if I get aid in the form of money I am 80% sure I can hit 750m and sit at about 690-700 after all the land is taken. This net would be pretty much all troop net, obviously at that point it's unsustainable to run more turns. There's no real theoretical cap on a leader player's net, but barring a major change in the way that people treat the game, you're still at a major disadvantage solo indying, because you tend to get murdered in retaliation once you sack that food/cash net out of someone else.

It's kind of a vicious cycle, but in the end it's a delicate balance, that if you end up reducing costs for indies more (I believe a way to defend themselves more effectively from leader attacks with towers is proposed), they end up with an absolutely insurmountable amount of net generation capability, moreso than they already have.

Solution-wise, it might be beneficial to either reduce the networth or cash value of food, or allow more food to be vulnerable instead of being able to put 90% or so of your store on the market. What this would do is force a leader player to have something of a standing army as opposed to letting indies take their land, then take them back easily if the indy left a troop hole, or if they attack with leaders. If you really want solo indy to be viable, you have to start looking at how solo leaders generate net versus how an indy does. Generally solo leaders end with, or can end with ~50b food on the market, or more, sometimes up to about a billion net of it. This net has to be taken into consideration, because all that really matters is everyone's end value. So theoretically a leader player during a round may sit at 150m, but when they "cash out" at the end with all their food, and either by selling it and buying troops, or just having the food net itself, they're going to jump to a billion or so.

The way I look at it, as far as lowering the market amount of food, you level the playing field and make solo indying viable as well as solo leadering, assuming the leader player is farming food to sell for units as opposed to sitting on a mountain of food that they will cry about if/when it gets sacked out. This goes hand in hand with the aid change, where you now have to spend multiple days to send up the same amount of resources to one person, because it's consuming their 18 tokens pretty quickly if you're piling net into them. If aid ends up working this way, you're going to end up seeing more people running with higher net, hopefully, because indies will end runs with barely sustainable armies that they can't aid off, and leader players will end up with a balance of food/armies/leaders, depending on what they've got.

[Firetooth]

I'm not insulting Worship, I'm just saying they do make up about a third of the active playerbase, counting holy. There's about 20-25 active players, and counting Neo, Worship+Holy are 8 strong. 8*3=24.

Anyway, on to the point the aid credits just mean you have to aid less frequently, I see it as a good step but not really a proper nerf. Indy obviously kicks leaders butt in terms of production, but it isn't sustainable or protectable.

Market is meant to be fixed soon, so that should get rid of invunerable food. I still think market thefting should be brought back, but eh.

Anyway, to the main point, I think you may be right that cash and food need to be nerfed in value/use, or possibly in the amounts produced. Still, at the end of the day no matter how much more net the solo indier has, they reach the period where they can't generate more net, and even if a leader only has a fifth of their net they can easily murder them down below them.

[Kilkenne]

Anyway, to the main point, I think you may be right that cash and food need to be nerfed in value/use, or possibly in the amounts produced. Still, at the end of the day no matter how much more net the solo indier has, they reach the period where they can't genereate more net, and even if a leader only has a fifth of their net they can easily murder them down below them.

This is a good summary statement. If people read nothing else in this thread, they should read this.

[Holby]

Anyway, to the main point, I think you may be right that cash and food need to be nerfed in value/use, or possibly in the amounts produced. Still, at the end of the day no matter how much more net the solo indier has, they reach the period where they can't genereate more net, and even if a leader only has a fifth of their net they can easily murder them down below them.

This is a good summary statement. If people read nothing else in this thread, they should read this.

I think when (if) the market is changed, this won't be a problem, because it won't be possible to use it as a storehouse.

That means leader players have to hold all their stuff, which means Indy players can sack it. I'm sure you've seen, especially when it comes to high amounts of food/cash, Sack is very effective.

Nerfing food's net isn't a solution as far as I'm concerned, because I still think there should be a HPR strategy in the game.

[Firetooth]

Anyway, to the main point, I think you may be right that cash and food need to be nerfed in value/use, or possibly in the amounts produced. Still, at the end of the day no matter how much more net the solo indier has, they reach the period where they can't genereate more net, and even if a leader only has a fifth of their net they can easily murder them down below them.

This is a good summary statement. If people read nothing else in this thread, they should read this.

I think when (if) the market is changed, this won't be a problem, because it won't be possible to use it as a storehouse.

That means leader players have to hold all their stuff, which means Indy players can sack it. I'm sure you've seen, especially when it comes to high amounts of food/cash, Sack is very effective.

Nerfing food's net isn't a solution as far as I'm concerned, because I still think there should be a HPR strategy in the game.

But that doesn't solve the problem of indies being useless solo. It jsut means leaderers have a harder time.

I don't get why so many people have the atittude that making sack amazing balances anything...quite the opposite. Sack is a useful tool but isn't going to fix the several problems with indying.

[Sharptooh]

Anyway, to the main point, I think you may be right that cash and food need to be nerfed in value/use, or possibly in the amounts produced. Still, at the end of the day no matter how much more net the solo indier has, they reach the period where they can't genereate more net, and even if a leader only has a fifth of their net they can easily murder them down below them.

This is a good summary statement. If people read nothing else in this thread, they should read this.

Why would this be a good thing, it would kill the only decent solo strategies in the game and make leaders totally unviable for anything but holding or destroying networth

Food is already worth next to nothing, and whilst cash is incredibly valuable and easy to produce as a leader player, there's no way to protect it

[Kilkenne]

Why would this be a good thing, it would kill the only decent solo strategies in the game and make leaders totally unviable for anything but holding or destroying networth

Food is already worth next to nothing, and whilst cash is incredibly valuable and easy to produce as a leader player, there's no way to protect it

It would encourage people to turn it into troops. In fact, I wouldn't care if we boosted feast/loot production for leaders, then took away the way that the market is used as a storehouse. It would encourage leaders to log off with standing armies that they'd bought. In most of these turbo rounds, there ends up being millions of troops cheaper than prices with camps on the market, it'd make the market more viable, and in a pinch, you can also buy a heck of a lot of troop net if you're producing food, selling it even for 9, and buying troops with it.

Even if you keep the market the way it is, it's pretty simple in a turbo round to gather up 50 billion food by the end while doing nothing else but. You can flip that for 450b cash, which is worth about a billion net of rats. That's pretty substantial, especially because the food on the market is untouchable unless you kill someone.

All the current state does is foster land trading, which is lame anyhow. The whole "troop hole" thing is gross to me.

[Sharptooh]

Trying to defend your land as a leader is fruitless and pointless Kilk, all it results in is you finishing with less net

Hence the whole "troop hole" thing you seem to loath

Nerfing food net or cash production in any way would only make this worse

[Kilkenne]

I said increase production so as to balance the effect. Reading comprehension.

Troop holes are disingenuous to the nature of the game. Giving land to your enemies so they can net is stupid.