Dispensation of Justice

[The Purple Dragon]

Actually, you had 22.7m marketed when you both died, don't sell yourselves short in this regard. It was a pretty impressive number, more stoats than anyone else in the game once you combined them, I think. Almost exactly 100m net in stoats.

I'm talking about skiffs, not stoats.

I believe I had 2million marketed while Blue Eyes had 3-4mil marketed. Let's go through the math.

now, 2 + 4 does not equal 22.7

  2
+4
-------
  6

Someone told me that they had the exact number of troops that we marketed memorized (it may have been neobarn or kilkenne which would invalidate the numbers) but if it was Windy or Volk, please post them. We had no more than 10 million skiffs in total marketed and on our 7 clan members.

[Firetooth]

Neo,:

• the 50mil number of net TPD sacked is exaggerated.
• As TPD said, we actually had very few skiffs. When I was holding the brunt of the clan net, I had a grand total of 777 skiffs
• Can you please reply to the point of volk knowing TPD wasn't trying to kill him? (not intended provocatively)

[The Purple Dragon]

Trust me, I know my history better than you.

I had to laugh at that.  :D PD, you know Kilk is a PHD History student, right?

Kilk is not spamming. His posts are relevant to the points being argued.

Haha aw darn got shut down on that one, no I had no idea... maybe its just the fact that he has a superiority complex and got shut down by a history minor...

[Kilkenne]

Oh, skiffs. Yeah, you had less 3m total. Not 6. You had 2,329,918, and Blue Eyes had 184,319. Just so you're clear. Anyhow, "shut down" I guess is your go-to when you don't have a better response. I'll let you think what you want to think, as it's your right. Playing the I AIN'T MAD, BRO card, though, doesn't work as well as you think it does. Making Neo out to be Mussolini is fallacious, as he's more of a Bismarck. Grandiose plans, great reasoning capability, but he has other people do the stuff for the most part. I think we can both agree with that, but I did like the Mussolini reference. Neo relies on other people and his connections a lot though, something that Il Duce didn't do well because of his rampant megalomania. It's hard to assign Fascism to anyone because it doesn't work well with RWL. Especially because no one uses workers.

As an aside, every time anyone mentions Mussolini all I can think of is that massive diorama of ancient Rome he had constructed. I would like to see that some day.

I'm going to go give a final, take it easy, thread. Keep it classy.

[The Purple Dragon]

Again, to sum up the entire argument and end posting on this thread...

1)Revelation got pissed because Blue Eyes captured some of his leaders (something like 200,000 of them).
2)Revelation retaliates with around 80 murders and 41 poisons in a row, destroying (unprovoked) 150milish net.
3)I get mad, tell Rev to take a chill pill and that if he does it again, we will retaliate.
4)Firetooth asks me to wait and be diplomatic, I agree and Firetooth attemps to resolves the conflict diplomatically, which proves difficult because BA is unwilling and just dodges every question we give them.
5) Ruddertail or Kilkenne (forget which) suicides 23 million stoats in a land grab that captured about 4,500 acres... this is the 2nd unprovoked destruction of networth by BA and I get mad again, but Firetooth stops me from killing Rev and King Cobra because he wanted to try to resolve this peacefully and have a fun round.
6)I once again let Firetooth do this thing which is (again) difficult with little to no cooperation from BA.
7) I sack Holby Alliance for about 5bil + 1bil food because I was onlined during a indy run by a BA member, and had to regain resources to finish the run.
8) I send a letter to Holby Alliance to tell him that I was not trying to kill him, but rather was trying to stay standing after an online attack.
9) Volkov replies telling me that he forgives me for the sacks.
10) I go to bed, wake up, and Firetooth, myself, and Blue Eyes are dead from a massive attack from BA that had obviously been planned for some time because they all went online at the same time to carry out their "peaceful clan motto".

I'm sorry, but we have given enough evidence to prove the fact that BA was the aggressor and that GLADOS held off from retaliating against 3 unprovoked murders/poisons/suicide attacks.

There is nothing more to be said on this forum, I look forward to our msn convo.

Peace
Purp

[The Purple Dragon]

Oh, skiffs. Yeah, you had less 3m total. Not 6. You had 2,329,918, and Blue Eyes had 184,319. Just so you're clear. Anyhow, "shut down" I guess is your go-to when you don't have a better response. I'll let you think what you want to think, as it's your right. Playing the I AIN'T MAD, BRO card, though, doesn't work as well as you think it does. Making Neo out to be Mussolini is fallacious, as he's more of a Bismarck. Grandiose plans, great reasoning capability, but he has other people do the stuff for the most part. I think we can both agree with that, but I did like the Mussolini reference. Neo relies on other people and his connections a lot though, something that Il Duce didn't do well because of his rampant megalomania. It's hard to assign Fascism to anyone because it doesn't work well with RWL. Especially because no one uses workers.

As an aside, every time anyone mentions Mussolini all I can think of is that massive diorama of ancient Rome he had constructed. I would like to see that some day.

I'm going to go give a final, take it easy, thread. Keep it classy.

I take it back.. the fact that you are also a history nerd just gave you a leg up in my books haha

[Neobaron]

10) I go to bed, wake up, and Firetooth, myself, and Blue Eyes are dead from a massive attack from BA that had obviously been planned for some time because they all went online at the same time to carry out their "peaceful clan motto".

At least this much is true.

After witnessing the run on Holby Alliance, we deliberated on MSN for nearly 10 hours, and sent out feelers to all of our allies seeking input on the issue.

As stated previously, 15 different warlords contributed turns, resources, intel, and their approval to this action.

[Neobaron]

The following is the MSN conversation I/we had with Firetooth shortly before the attempted kill of Holby Alliance.

Jon Cook = Neobaron
Chris = Kilkenne
Hiro = Firetooth

Jon Cook says
Bizarre.

Hiro says
Hmm? What's bizzara (also hi)

Jon Cook says
I had to add you again before I could see you online.
Let me get docked here and log

Hiro says
aha and vice versa, I just added you again
k
You still there?

Jon Cook says
yessir.
docking
long jumps to high sec are a pain in the [edited]
Allrighty. Do you have 10 for me to go out for a smoke? (Really sorry, this caught me off guard.)

Hiro says
ok
Ermm... it;'s 10 to 11 here lol

Jon Cook says
 also i'm going to be bringing in a scry/arbiter for this, just to make sure i don't forget anything or miss any questions
ahh

Hiro says
I can proably wait, but I don't have too much time

Jon Cook says
ill be quick

Hiro says
Cool beans
...did I actually just type that?  

Jon Cook says
haha everyone has their mannerisms
 
Chris has been added to the conversation.
 
Jon Cook says
Good diplomats always work in pairs. Kilk and I are just different enough that we can see all details.

Hiro says
Lol, I suppose, but I don't usually say that haha

Chris says
Think of me as the irrational voice of unreason

Hiro says
anyway, to business:
What is your clans view of the conflicts?

Jon Cook says
I don't really understand what the fuss is. Realistically, this round is going to be necessarily more brutal than most on account of resource shortage.
Where there would normally be freedom of movement, this round there is not.
We are perpetually strapped for cash, and given the timezone differences, we are usually unable to support one another in real time.
And leaving resources stacked on an indy is just foolish... so we try not to.
So, for example, when someone has 13,000 land and it is the second or third highest total currently available to hit, one must use their available resources to get what they need to be successful.
We don't mind sacks... they are a necessary evil, and as I have told my guys, it is in the code to be used - but in moderation.

Chris says
I think that this is the situation that leads to these kind of conversations though, because everyone has to do what they have to do, and sometimes actions that appear entirely hostile can't be avoided. But they can be used in moderation.
The "this" referring to the land situation in the game

Jon Cook says
The point is that we're trying to converse rather than just dropping the hammer.
That I/we are showing that kind of willingness to reach out, and general restraint in regard to several threats should prove our intentions are pure.

Hiro says
...helo

Jon Cook says
... are you reading this?
Please tell me you're reading this.

---
At this point, Firetooth's MSN or whatever he uses broke, and we had to start a new conversation.
---

Jon Cook says
testing
testing

Hiro says
No offence, but I don't have too long, can we please hurry this up?

Jon Cook says
can you read this?

Hiro says
yep

Jon Cook says
Did you get any of what was sent in the other conversation? We wrote you an essay.

Hiro says
yeah, i checked, wait a sec
ok, looking at it
We barely have any skiffs at all
Like a few thousand
I do not think it is unreasonable for you to not use stoats
It is BS that a indy couldn't switch to 100% skiffs for a few turns or just buy some, and king kobra also purposefully failed attacks with stoats. (that isn't gen is it?)

Jon Cook says
Fair enough, but intel says otherwise. By our reports, your clan has at least 10-20 million skiffers floating around.

Hiro says
not that i know of
Rats:                     34,189,176                 Weasels:                     9,659,570                 Stoats:                     28,153,802                 Skiffs:                     285,962

Jon Cook says
Skiffs (?) 5,275,299  this is TPD at the peak of a run.
If you say you have no skiffs, and we see you do, I suppose it can be chalked up to a misunderstanding.
Cobra is not Gen, no.

Hiro says
then she is def dead cat bounce
and cobra is, perhaps, ruddertail

Jon Cook says
fair enough

Hiro says
I still dont see why gen even needed the land
lemme quote blue eyes:
Dead Cat Bounce just attacked me 40 times with stoats to capture about  2,000 land and I lost 17million stoats (100million networth).

Jon Cook says
That is a blatant lie.

Hiro says
Combined with murders, that's nearing 300mil net you guys have cost me so far

Jon Cook says
one moment

Hiro says
recent attacks doesnt have their history, so I can't confirm

Jon Cook says
17 attacks for 5216 land
look in the news search, type dead cat bounce and set it to attacker

Hiro says
mhm, i see
still, the details are't precise, however rev also (greatly) favricated on our attacks on you

Jon Cook says
Perhaps Blue Eyes is going off of attack interactions, which is known to be highly flawed?

Hiro says
and 5k land in exchange for us losing 100mil net is still excessive
perhaps
dunno whatpoint there is cutting 3k off

Jon Cook says
Severity
5k land is huge this round.
Incitement also

Hiro says
5k land isn't that huge
It's easy for an indy to gather 30k if they scrape as they go, 40-50k also wouldn't be so hard, purpy d manages it

Jon Cook says
It's 1/9th the most anyone has scraped and only slightly below the average land total for all players bud. 5k is about 1 empires worth of land right now.

Hiro says
more like 7.5k
Still, you miss my point
We've killed near to none of your net( some sacks) and you've cost me 250mil net
(well, not you directly)
and this early on with this land, that IS a huge number

Jon Cook says
We've cost you about 170 million at most man. Kilk is crunching numbers like theres no tomorrow on this round, and the net loss to us was comparable.

Hiro says
17mil stoats, ...17mil *4=85mil net
+120mil in murders
Overshot, but still 200mil
plus, kobra also suicided a few mill stoats off blue eyes
that puts it up lets say 20-30mil

Jon Cook says
6 million actually

Hiro says
wait, clarify that
brb, running

Jon Cook says
1,519,815 total stoats were lost by blue eyes when cobra "suicided" him.
*4 = ~6 million

Hiro says
ok me adding too many in ym sleep-deprivedstate (I have no slept at all erally today and it is 20 past 11)

Jon Cook says
By comparison, Cobra lost ~5 million in net on the failures.
Do you think this is an intended suicide?
Suicides are for desperation, or when the target was foolish enough to leave their health low at the end of a run.
It was not a targetted suicide.
Also, if you check the timestamps, you'll find that all 4 attacks happened over a period of about 10 minutes... does it take someone 10 minutes to make 4 attacks, or was he trying to build up to break for land?

Hiro says
wait a sec
fair point
Look, I'm not being unreasonable here

Jon Cook says
You haven't even asked for anything or made a point bud. Theres nothing to be unreasonable about. I concede that you lost net, but I offer that the net was lost in the course of my guys playing the game rather than hitting you with the intent to destroy net.

Hiro says
you're clan has repeatedly cost mine net twice despite our agreement
What I'm saying is I either want some form of compensation or punishment on your side
My clan wants somebody to pay

Jon Cook says
Punishment for what? Playing the game? You can't be serious.

Hiro says
For destroying the clans net and breaking are agreement

Jon Cook says
If you want someone to pay, strip Blue Eyes and TPD and beat them to pieces. They are the warhawks here, and the ones feeding you skewed information and lies.

Hiro says
we were meant to be left to net in peace but have been denied that twice

Jon Cook says
None of you are dead, and none of you have been crippled.

Hiro says
No, but we lost net, a significant amount

Jon Cook says
How have you been denied netting in peace? Or do you expect nobody to hit you.
And we didn't?

Hiro says
Stoats are out focused troop type

Jon Cook says
Ours as well.
Now that we know that, we can break in confidence on boats. Correct?

Hiro says
we have not been hitting your net down when we could have used other troops

Jon Cook says
Volkov lost ~50 million to sacks on saturday and gen had 5 billion stolen from her at the peak of a run.
If anything, we should be asking you for recompense.
See there is a very keen difference between losses to the course of the game, and losses to malicious intent.
If we grab land, thats just the game.

Hiro said (5:30 PM)
I forbade sacks, but that is despite the point

Jon Cook says
If we sack you in excess of 20 times, that is malicious intent.
Far from it.

Hiro said (5:31 PM)
50mil net_5bil cash=/=200mil in stoats
are you still there, my msn disconnected?

Jon Cook says
Yes
what is the last thing you got from me.

---

The refutation to every point presented against BAº is accepted by firetooth in this conversation.

It seemed like we were getting on to a resolution, but Firetooth's MSN broke once again, and he did not return.

[Kilkenne]

I take it back.. the fact that you are also a history nerd just gave you a leg up in my books haha

You and I should history nerd it up sometime. You'd be surprised at how little of that I get to do, it's always welcome.

Also, holy chatlogs, batman.

[Firetooth]

Neo, drop the "attempted kill" thing. Read TPD'S messages to volk. It was not an attempted kill. You seem to have convieniently overlooked that.

And if we were getting to a resolution, how come you killed me?

[Neobaron]

The message to Volkov was sent after King Cobra and Revelation thwarted the run on Holby Alliance.

To me, that was an indication that they were caught in the act and tried to rationalize attacking a warlord with only 3k land several dozen times.

There is no good reason to attack a warlord with only 3k land several dozen times unless you are attempting to kill them.

I also found it interesting that about the same time the message was sent, both TPD and Blue eyes shipped off all of their net, and had their names changed.  

Given the proximity of their actions to the conversation we had, BAº and it's allies had no other choice to assume the worst - the worst being that you were complicit in (or at least gave approval to) their actions.

One does not try to disappear unless one is trying to hide from something. They were trying to kill Volkov, and both of them logged on dozens of times in tandem, only to see that we were all still standing watch.

[Firetooth]

Erm, sacks my friend. That is every reason to hit a warlord low. As are captures. Not exactly happy pony raising behavior, but it isn't necessarily trying to kill a player. 

I was not online, so why assume I was involved? Especially after our talk, and the message you knew I sent to my clan? ??? Also, is that you admitting you weren't right to kill me, then?

Haha you think them changing names is proof of anything? TPD changed his name the first time when I was still online! Besides, they keep the same number, message log,  past attacks, clan etc. Changing name would not be a good way to try to dissapear. For all you know, they could've mailed Shael earlier in the day and she happened to log on then. You don't just magically change your name, an admin has to do it for you.

[Neobaron]

But even this rationalization for the attacks falls in violation of the implied reduction on sacks...

As to your message? 2 people reported receiving it. I know it was sent. But again, proximity and actions told us it was a bluff to confuse my spies.

---

As to the name change, my point is conjecture. I will concede that.

But why change names? And especially to things that imply an intent to invade or destroy.

[Firetooth]

True, but even then it was apologized for, and it would still not warrant 3 kills. Your clan has done much more then, but I forgive and forget. Why can't you do the same and move on? Now you've put yourself in a volatile situation and angered not just 1 large clan but 2.

Your spies, huh? You have people in my clan? Pretty foolish to reveal that, but I had guessed. It was, however, no bluff.

They were planning to destroy you before I stepped in. Seems logical to me.

[Gen. Volkov]

Finally, Volk you are a real hypocrite. You had troubles controlling Sevah last round, but now you turn around and blame me.

Uh Firetooth, that was a FORCED CLAN ROUND. I had no choice. If it had been my clan to start and run, and I had chosen to let Sevah in, he would have listened to me or been booted. Completely different situation.

I have a different time scale to people here. I'd been out all day. I had to gather both sides of the stories when the time was 9PM. My life isn't this game, I do actually need to sleep. Honestly, you're a bunch of hypocrites. You condemn kills in war, but kills on an innocent warlord are 100% fine. Where is the outcry on how this is unjust? If I was Holby, or Winfy or somebody there would be an outcry on how I had been wronged, but none of you care simply because I had a clan that's only goal was to net.

Firetooth, you seem to be missing the part where they tried to kill me first. Remember how I reacted when Peace killed me in reg? Same deal, only this time I have allies who aren't secretly passing info to the enemy.

But only after BA started spamming suicides on us. Taking out 200 mil networth in suicides justified any response we gave. We would very easily have had blue eyes set up as emperor if you didn't violently take him out.

They weren't troop suicides, they were attacks for land. Indies don't have the luxury of spying the other guy and seeing what troops he has, they just hit them with their strongest troop. A suicide is when you are attacking someone, but not breaking, over and over again.