Vacation Fix

[Wolf Snare]

You guys are all still missing the point -- sure, I can point out several different variations of how vacation could be abused, but that isn't the point. Outlaw it and the problem is solved. There is no need to "monitor" the game for cheaters and an effective version of abuse is noticeable and stopped early. Besides, our member base does not consist of a bunch of blood hungry lunatics just waiting to find different ways to abuse the code. If we say enough is enough then all of these silly fixes you guys are bringing forth can be laid to rest. You guys seem to always try to over complicate things.

[Shadow]

And how do you classify what happened last round? I call it cheating. You obviously don't. Without a coded fix (which is as easy as removing a few lines of code) there is room for ambiguity, which zep stated he was only too happy to exploit.

[Peace Alliance]

I can find a significant flaw in your plan, volkov. You're forgetting that there are 49 other players in the game. The clan 'scraping up all the land and making NW' part would be just as competitive as it is right now. The only advantage is that this clan would have an invulnerable - albeit useless - mule sittin in vacation.

I would classify this problem in the same category as the clan hopping problem. Cloud sittin clanless in first place would be nearly as impossible to take down as him sittin in vacation. That's how you guys finally started holding onto your NW last round.

When clan hopping was noticed we put in a fix almost immediately, it was the wrong fix, I've since put in another fix, it's also the wrong fix.... Lets take a deep breath here and figure out the best way to structure the game so that these tricks aren't playable.

In the mean time, we all know there is potential for a clan to be jerks and start using vacation to help safeguard their NW. Knowing that, it's not very hard to rise up and stop them. Sometimes the game can sort itself out, especially when we have so many players active and aware. Stay vigilant, and take aggressive action when necessary and this problem may never arise.

[Shadow]

That's the problem though - vacation abuse is a way to avoid the game being able to police you.

[Gen. Volkov]

You guys are all still missing the point -- sure, I can point out several different variations of how vacation could be abused, but that isn't the point. Outlaw it and the problem is solved. There is no need to "monitor" the game for cheaters and an effective version of abuse is noticeable and stopped early. Besides, our member base does not consist of a bunch of blood hungry lunatics just waiting to find different ways to abuse the code. If we say enough is enough then all of these silly fixes you guys are bringing forth can be laid to rest. You guys seem to always try to over complicate things.

If I were to implement my strategy, every single vacation would be claimed as legitimate. Just like you did with windy, I would argue it round and round until either I had my guy so high up that he couldn't be touched in reg, or the round was over in turbo. Sure you can outlaw it, but the problem is, it's not an easily classifiable offense. The vacationer could always argue it was legitimate, and you'd be hard pressed to prove him wrong categorically, even if you knew in your gut that he was abusing the code.

I can find a significant flaw in your plan, volkov. You're forgetting that there are 49 other players in the game. The clan 'scraping up all the land and making NW' part would be just as competitive as it is right now. The only advantage is that this clan would have an invulnerable - albeit useless - mule sittin in vacation.

It would take one run to scrape up the land and dump NW. We wouldn't get all the land, but we'd get enough to make a big difference. Same with the net. Then we could just casually mass net while our mule sat on vaca. It doesn't matter how competitive the other players are if they can't touch the land or NW. Like I said, in two weeks I could have the mule high enough that he could be safely taken off vaca and the real land scraping could begin. Vacation was never intended to create untouchable net mules. He'd be far from useless.

I would classify this problem in the same category as the clan hopping problem. Cloud sittin clanless in first place would be nearly as impossible to take down as him sittin in vacation. That's how you guys finally started holding onto your NW last round.

Yeah, because Snare totally didn't manage to take me down when I was sitting clanless with 2 billion NW. And Woof totally didn't manage to take down Bob-sama when he was sitting clanless with a billion NW and 120k land. /end sarcasm. In fact, the only time one side couldn't take down the other's NW holder is when Bob was in vacation.

When clan hopping was noticed we put in a fix almost immediately, it was the wrong fix, I've since put in another fix, it's also the wrong fix.... Lets take a deep breath here and figure out the best way to structure the game so that these tricks aren't playable.

I agree, we should consider the options, but first you have to acknowledge the problem! The partial fixes like "just for storehouse rounds" won't work, because it will still be abusable, as both Shadow and I have pointed out. The fact that nobody HAS done it yet does not mean nobody WILL. If you can see a problem before it becomes a problem, there is no reason not to fix it.

In the mean time, we all know there is potential for a clan to be jerks and start using vacation to help safeguard their NW. Knowing that, it's not very hard to rise up and stop them. Sometimes the game can sort itself out, especially when we have so many players active and aware. Stay vigilant, and take aggressive action when necessary and this problem may never arise.

How are we supposed to know they are going to use the vacation function to safeguard NW until it happens? There is no warning. We see a person jump up and it's no big deal. Then BAM they are on vacation and there isn't a darn thing we can do about it! Sure we can try and suppress their clan after the fact, but if they are even halfway organized, and competent players, they are going to be able to coordinate a clan run and totally defeat our efforts. We could never keep BlackFly suppressed in the Woof-BlackFly war, and BlackFly couldn't keep us suppressed.

[Wolf Snare]

You guys are all still missing the point -- sure, I can point out several different variations of how vacation could be abused, but that isn't the point. Outlaw it and the problem is solved. There is no need to "monitor" the game for cheaters and an effective version of abuse is noticeable and stopped early. Besides, our member base does not consist of a bunch of blood hungry lunatics just waiting to find different ways to abuse the code. If we say enough is enough then all of these silly fixes you guys are bringing forth can be laid to rest. You guys seem to always try to over complicate things.

If I were to implement my strategy, every single vacation would be claimed as legitimate. Just like you did with windy, I would argue it round and round until either I had my guy so high up that he couldn't be touched in reg, or the round was over in turbo. Sure you can outlaw it, but the problem is, it's not an easily classifiable offense. The vacationer could always argue it was legitimate, and you'd be hard pressed to prove him wrong categorically, even if you knew in your gut that he was abusing the code.

I can find a significant flaw in your plan, volkov. You're forgetting that there are 49 other players in the game. The clan 'scraping up all the land and making NW' part would be just as competitive as it is right now. The only advantage is that this clan would have an invulnerable - albeit useless - mule sittin in vacation.

It would take one run to scrape up the land and dump NW. We wouldn't get all the land, but we'd get enough to make a big difference. Same with the net. Then we could just casually mass net while our mule sat on vaca. It doesn't matter how competitive the other players are if they can't touch the land or NW. Like I said, in two weeks I could have the mule high enough that he could be safely taken off vaca and the real land scraping could begin. Vacation was never intended to create untouchable net mules. He'd be far from useless.

I would classify this problem in the same category as the clan hopping problem. Cloud sittin clanless in first place would be nearly as impossible to take down as him sittin in vacation. That's how you guys finally started holding onto your NW last round.

Yeah, because Snare totally didn't manage to take me down when I was sitting clanless with 2 billion NW. And Woof totally didn't manage to take down Bob-sama when he was sitting clanless with a billion NW and 120k land. /end sarcasm. In fact, the only time one side couldn't take down the other's NW holder is when Bob was in vacation.

When clan hopping was noticed we put in a fix almost immediately, it was the wrong fix, I've since put in another fix, it's also the wrong fix.... Lets take a deep breath here and figure out the best way to structure the game so that these tricks aren't playable.

I agree, we should consider the options, but first you have to acknowledge the problem! The partial fixes like "just for storehouse rounds" won't work, because it will still be abusable, as both Shadow and I have pointed out. The fact that nobody HAS done it yet does not mean nobody WILL. If you can see a problem before it becomes a problem, there is no reason not to fix it.

In the mean time, we all know there is potential for a clan to be jerks and start using vacation to help safeguard their NW. Knowing that, it's not very hard to rise up and stop them. Sometimes the game can sort itself out, especially when we have so many players active and aware. Stay vigilant, and take aggressive action when necessary and this problem may never arise.

How are we supposed to know they are going to use the vacation function to safeguard NW until it happens? There is no warning. We see a person jump up and it's no big deal. Then BAM they are on vacation and there isn't a darn thing we can do about it! Sure we can try and suppress their clan after the fact, but if they are even halfway organized, and competent players, they are going to be able to coordinate a clan run and totally defeat our efforts. We could never keep BlackFly suppressed in the Woof-BlackFly war, and BlackFly couldn't keep us suppressed.

See, this is where you misunderstand... The problem at hand is people propping up an emp and then having them vacate the game, right?? Well, what I was suggesting was to simply ban the strategy of aiding an empire who then hides in protection. It's hard to argue anything about legitimate vacations when the person is aided sky high just before -- that's what we are banning. Anyone can still come and go on vacation as they please -- hell, they don't even have to be on vacation-- but the strategy of vacationing for DEFENSE is no longer an option. We need to think twice, as Ollie said, before jumping into rash and certainly complicated solutions that in effect alter how the game works.

[Gen. Volkov]

You can't ban a strategy, but you can ban a specific set of actions. For example, if an empire gets aided up to high NW and then goes on vacation 12 hours later, that could be a ban offense. But where is the time limit? How long after taking #1 WOULD it be acceptable to go into vacation? 1 day? 3 days? a week? These are questions that must be answered to prevent abuse. And even then, it would still be abuseable. Not anywhere near as easily, but still abusable. Vacation is not like the 1 rat attack, which is clearly visible to admins and can be acted against. There is always an argument to be made or a time limit to work around. The vacation function needs to be unabusable, and I still am not seeing that in your solution Snare.

[Wolf Snare]

It's as easy as setting some ground rules Volk. When I am not in my g/f's room in the dark, attempting to be quiet with each keystroke, I'll make an attempt at what those may be.

[TheSpaceman]

Can I put a word in edgewize here guys.

Were arguing, as far as I can see, about something that only happened once, under a very specific set of circumstances.
Now i know I wasn't really active at the end of the storehouse round, but it was the storehouse round that, for lack of a better word, forced the abuse.

Look at it this way, enemy has, i dont know, 20 billion networth, you do too, but your leader defence was just wiped out.
As soon as your enemy realises this your net is toasted marshmellows on a campfire. ?what can you do to protect it, only one thing.  The abuse was, I can say from personal observation, a last resort, one not easily chosen, and one not taken lightly.  Ever wonder why they argued so vehermently on the forums that it wasn't abuse, because they were forced to it.

I can't see it hapening on reg, it doesn't give you any real advantage to lock down net.  As previously stated it will be seen a mile away, and the clan doing it, at least those active members, will face swift retribution.  As for turbo, the three day lockout and the obviousness of the ploy again means that, in general, it won't be effective as a tactic.

The only way it is effective is with storhouses, its the only way you can suddenly amass 20 billion net in your account that you somehow need to protect.

I can also see a problem with completely removing vacation in storehouse rounds, because everyone is a target, the whole idea of the round is that it is one big war at the end.  If i have to go away i can't stop playing, and my clan pays the price for my scheduling dificulties.

I also can see a solution no one else has sugessted, as far as I can see, keep the storehouse available.  Beleive me when I say that the ones who 'abused' the code would have rather used a storehouse.  Put it back in there and take it out again later when you are ready.  Now this could be abused, but if you made say a 24 hour waiting period between redeposit and the second removal that fixes that issue. Perhaps even longer, most people run every 24 hours, so mabey 3 days, but thats minor detail, it would give people an option that isn't code abuse.

Would you like to see a months work go up in flames because the only way to protect it is illegal, I honestly think we would all have to say this isn't the case.

At least consider this option.

[Shadow]

because they were forced to it.

No, they were forced into a corner, and they could have accepted that with good grace instead of cheating.

And it has been done  and considered more htan once, both on reg and turbo. It is a real proble, which I would demonstrate to you on reg if I weren't involved in H & B at the moment, and it's working too well to stop now over an argument.

, it doesn't give you any real advantage to lock down net.

With Ereptor, it would have. We could have made repeat emps using vacation and locked down the game as a clan if it hadnt reset.

If i have to go away i can't stop playing, and my clan pays the price for my scheduling dificulties.

so tell your clan and aid  your stuff away - every clan every storehouse round has plenty of inactive players, it wont affect much.

Would you like to see a months work go up in flames because the only way to protect it is illegal,

yes? If you fail, you fail, you don't cheat.

[TheSpaceman]

Shadow, you submit that what they did was cheating.
I disagree with that on a fundamental level.
The fact is, as far as I can see, it was only established after the fact that this was code abuse.
After.  Not before.  Now you can correct me if i'm wrong, youve been here longer than I have, but thats how im reading things.
If we then say that they shouldn't have done it because they knew better, we make rules subjective, and destroy the whole reason we have rules in the first place.

Yes they were backed into a corner, but they didn't 'cheat' because it wasn't cheating untill after it was done, it was a frowned upon tactic, but it was still legitimate.

All im asking is that they be given the benefit of the doubt, and give them a better option in the future.

As for it working well with ereptor, the situation was such that it was like a storehouse round, you already had your net.  Now could it be exploited, probably, will it be, I honestly doubt it, its just too complicated, for too little gain, especially when the whole game will come down on you.  I submit that you probably could exploit it, but i also say, that if it was set out in some groundrules that it not be done, then the game would probably sort itself out.  I dont think there will be a code fix that will work effectively, without sacrificing either the admins time our privacy, or our ability to protect ourselves when we cant or dont want to play.

And as for there being inactive clan members in storehouse rounds, when the distrubution occurs it goes to all clan members, active or not.  If someone can't aid their net because they are away, one fifth of the clans net is so much target practice that its not funny.  It can cost your clan, that youve never experienced this is beside the point, it could happen.

[Shadow]

We've alerady had this argument lol. Everyone who isn't a member of Snare and Co's regular team says they didn't cheat, the rest of the game does. However, since it happened we have determined that it is not something we want happening again, hence the topic about solutions, not arguments about whether or not it was cheating, because as you can see, those go nowhere.

[TheSpaceman]

Ya, was thinking pretty much the same thing.

What I am trying to say is that perhaps subtracting something from the game won't work.

No one seems to be able to come up with a workable and agreeable adjustment to the vac settings.

So mabey removing something isnt the answer. Instead why dont we give people a different option, one we all can agree on and accept.
Let people follow the rules, while at the same time letting them have fun and do what they want to do.

Isnt that what rules in a game are supposed to do after all.  Help you have fun?

[Shadow]

Let people follow the rules, while at the same time letting them have fun and do what they want to do.

Isnt that what rules in a game are supposed to do after all.  Help you have fun?

Well aren't you idealistic :P

People don't do that. There is blatant clan hopping happening on turbo right now, even though people know it is intended to be against the rules. Rules don't work here - either you code it in, or you accept that it happens. I like the coding option ^_^

[CobyCopper]

I think vacation is exactly how it should be. Vacation is so that you can hit "pause" on your account and not having it absolutely obliterated while you're away doing something much more important. Vacation was built to save networth and land and that's exactly what it does. If it took 72 hours to go into vacation in the first place, what's the point?? Might as well send your enemies all your NW in that case, because nothing is going to stop them from getting to it. The problem with "fixing" it is you're looking to harm the vacation-goer, and as I just tried to point out, vacation is to save the player. Oh--and abuse of vacation to crown a super-emperor is a lot easier than given credit for. A few people and a few Rats, you can vacation one person at a time with, say, $3-5b NW each. So long as they have a few turns, they can come back and aid the same person up to #1 with let's say $10b NW. Whatever's left should go towards troop suicides and then sold to market-theft a few people. But that's not really abuse or anything. If I remember what I did a few months ago with a poo of land and relatively a lot of networth had me out of vacation for what? Four times as long as required? I was out of the game for 2, maybe 2 1/2 weeks, and came back still to no major competitive advantage. Hell, in that time I was surpassed a few times even, so had anyone with half a cerebral cortex could have taken all that juicy land that I had out in the open for a good long while.