What is your religion?

[Juska]

Moreover, even if you could prove that something is perfectly true there will still be people who will not accept the truth of a statement no matter what evidence is placed in front of them.

That requires stupidity, not faith. If someone clings to faith when the validity of their faith has been proven wrong, that person is an idiot.

I'm glad you believe it requires stupidity and not faith to not believe in something that was infallible because that is in part my point. There are people who not believe something no matter the evidence and I refuse to believe you have not run into someone who would not move from their position no matter what evidence was brought forward to prove they were wrong. However, my point in this sentence was to go along with your statement that when mankind finally advances to the point where they discover for certain the "god" that exists that faith will no matter because it will be proven. What I am trying to show is that it requires faith to believe something even if it is infallible, if it didn't then everyone when presented with perfect evidence would automatically agree with you no matter what.

Lets take the air you breathe for example and say your entire life you've lived in a sealed environment and have never left it and then suddenly you get device that measure oxygen levels outside of your sealed environment, the device proves that their is oxygen out there, you've even run tests on animals and they have lived out there, but it still takes faith in all these things, in yourself, in your work, that when you walk outside and breathe that air that you are not going to die (from asphyxiation) .  That's hypothetical of course.

It doesn't take faith, it takes confidence in your own ability to carry out the tests, make the equipment, etc. It's a matter of whether or not you made a mistake, not of faith.

I'm not just talking about making mistakes in your procedure or with your equipment, I'm also saying that it takes faith to take that breathe, that that oxygen is the same as the oxygen that you breathe, the readings etc. reassure you, give you confidence. But how can you really know that your going to be able to breathe when you walk outside, you can't know for certain until you do it and it takes faith in something to be able to do it.  

It takes faith to believe that the very minute that you sit there reading this that you are actually sitting there reading this.

No, it just takes not being overly paranoid. I suppose it is possible that we are all in a giant simulation, but faith has nothing to do with the fact that I don't think we are, I simply think that because it is logical and far more likely than the alternative.

See Volkov's post.

I understand the purpose of the universe, it's purpose is to glorify the Creator.

Fine, but if the creator is a mindless particle, then who gives a crap? Certainly not the particle, so let's just live to glorify ourselves. And until proven otherwise, I see no reason to invent gods to worship on the offchance I get it right - I am going to find whatever god is through something other than guesswork.

How can you believe that if there is a creator and it made us, it made the wide expanse of the heavens and all that is in them that it is a mindless particle? What does that say about us or the world that we live in if we and it were created by a mindless particle? And I didn't invent God and I'm not guessing.


@ Briar

The Christian God is the God of the Old and New Testament, the Triune God consisting of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

He would be God as told by the Bible.

[Briar]

The Christian God is the God of the Old and New Testament, the Triune God consisting of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

He would be God as told by the Bible.

Hm, interesting.  I believe God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate beings. But ok.

[Shadow]

How can you believe that if there is a creator and it made us, it made the wide expanse of the heavens and all that is in them that it is a mindless particle? What does that say about us or the world that we live in if we and it were created by a mindless particle? And I didn't invent God and I'm not guessing.

I don't believe some particle created the universe, it was just a random example. You guys are getting too hung up on the letter of what I say to get the meaning out of it. I'll try to explain better.

The word 'creator' implies sentience. My point is that this is not a requirement. It is entirely possible that the reason we are here is the interection of forces that are non-sentient, the fundamental laws of the universe. You /are/ guessing, whether you call it faith or not, although you didn't invent god. Humans invented god collectively, you are just one of those that keep the idea alive. Without belief, god ceases to exist, just like every other god peopel have cooked up since they were able to think.

However, my point in this sentence was to go along with your statement that when mankind finally advances to the point where they discover for certain the "god" that exists that faith will no matter because it will be proven. What I am trying to show is that it requires faith to believe something even if it is infallible, if it didn't then everyone when presented with perfect evidence would automatically agree with you no matter what.

I am not so sure what you are saying here, could you explain it a little clearer perhaps?

I'm not just talking about making mistakes in your procedure or with your equipment, I'm also saying that it takes faith to take that breathe, that that oxygen is the same as the oxygen that you breathe, the readings etc. reassure you, give you confidence. But how can you really know that your going to be able to breathe when you walk outside, you can't know for certain until you do it and it takes faith in something to be able to do it.

Fine, I have faith in my own existence and my senses. But that faith is based on evidence that says that they have yet to be proven wrong about something. Faith in something that has a more or less perfect track record thus far is justified. Faith in something humanity has never sensed with any of its 5 senses is misplaced.

What do you know to be true Shadow? Nothing. Your whole concept of the universe is based on the faith that the world you perceive actually exists outside of you. The difference between you and I is that I accept this fact. Beyond that, I accept the possibility of many things, and then judge the probability of them being correct or not. In regards to these big questions about God and such though, I acknowledge my own ignorance. It's simply not possible to calculate the odds of Gods existence, nor is it possible to test for him. I just take it one step further and say that it never will be possible to do either of those things. As for what I base my life on, in practical terms I am basically an athiest, these high philosphical thoughts all boil down to me not going to church and generally not being religious. It's really only when I get into a discussion like this that my beliefs really intrude on my normal life.

Fine, nobody knows anything. Which means that Christians don't actually know that thier god exists. It also means that debate is a pointless activity. In the absence of certainty, I work with the closest thing I have to fact, which is what I can prove, in the framework of my faith that what I observe is real. Man, you are really splitting hairs here. Can we accept for the rest of this argument that the universe exists and that you aren't figments of my imagination? Because if we can't there really isn't any point debating it.

[Gen. Volkov]

Fine, nobody knows anything. Which means that Christians don't actually know that thier god exists.

True, they believe he exists, in the absence of proof. That is the definition of faith.

It also means that debate is a pointless activity.

If you accept that it is merely faith that the world you see actually exists, then debate ceases to become pointless, as we are all starting from that common point.

In the absence of certainty, I work with the closest thing I have to fact, which is what I can prove, in the framework of my faith that what I observe is real.

That's fine Shadow. I do the same thing, for the most part.

Man, you are really splitting hairs here.

How am I splitting hairs? That would imply that I am making fine distinctions between very closely related ideas. I don't think discussing the very existence of the universe outside ourselves qualifies in the slightest.

Can we accept for the rest of this argument that the universe exists and that you aren't figments of my imagination? Because if we can't there really isn't any point debating it.

As long as you stop making silly statements about what is absurd or not, sure.

[Daryn]

convert to buddhism!

[Ungatt Trunn II]

Please don't go with this whole religious crusade type thing Daryn, you'll remind us all of the infamous Fex Fighter...

[Daryn]

Please don't go with this whole religious crusade type thing Daryn, you'll remind us all of the infamous Fex Fighter...

who that?

[Ungatt Trunn II]

http://www.redwallwarlords.com/forums/index.php?topic=9574.0

[Daryn]

i c

[Holby]

No

Agnostic is sort of hand-wringing, maybe-there-is-maybe-there-isn't. I know that the Christian God doesn't exist with the same certainty that Christians know he does exist. I am atheist.

Not really. You're agnostic, stop trying to pretend you're an atheist :P .

[Shadow]

NO lol. According to volk, agnisticism acknowledges that god is unknowable. Since I think that god is just another word for the as yet unknown and that the unknown is knowable, in time, I am not agnostic.

[Ashyra Nightwing]

I'm an atheist, religion isn't something that preoccupies me much at all though. Used to be Christian, but it all got a bit too crazy for my liking. :D

[Briar]

I'm a Latter-Day Saint (a.k.a mormon). 

I find it interesting that in the last, say decade or so, there has seemingly been a growing number of atheists....at least in North America.  I don't know about the rest of the world.

[Shadow]

Atheism in Europe is much bigger than here - there are countries that have an atheist majority now. Belgium for one (according to an exchange student and good friend of mine who is Belgian)

[Sharptooh]

I can see how this is going to turn out . . .

I'm a Latter-Day Saint (a.k.a mormon). 

I find it interesting that in the last, say decade or so, there has seemingly been a growing number of atheists....at least in North America.  I don't know about the rest of the world.

That's interesting, I have a good friend at school who's a Mormon, really nice guy, as for there being more atheists i think it varies in different parts of the world, in some places more people are becoming religious, in some parts of the world more people are becoming atheists, I think I read something a while ago about more Americans looking towards religion but don't quote me on that.

Please don't go with this whole religious crusade type thing Daryn, you'll remind us all of the infamous Fex Fighter...

lol, whatever happened to him?

I think most people know which religion I am anyway so I won't bother mentioning it.