The Market

[Shadow]

I think looking at the direction other successful promisance are taking is a good way to progress. For the two main issues I have seen here (market theft and indy's lack of balances for leader strats) I think FAF has the answer.

With regards to market theft, FAF is approaching the problem from the opposite angle. Market theft doesn't exist and they want to implement it without overpowering it. I think the fix they are considering could work here to solve the exact opposite problem:

Money from market sales goes directly to the bank. Each hour, a percentage of the surplus cash is taken from the bank and added to the player's stockpile. This was necessary because in FAF you can "stuff the bank" ei you don't lose the surplus if you take turns. Here, we could use the bank leakage system or we could just make it so that you lose the extra if you take turns, as it is now. If we use leakage market theft will still be possible, but it would be more difficult, would probably require two people because of the timing issues, and would not be able to take 100% of the resources in question. If we don't use leakage but send cash from market sales to the bank, it kills market theft completely. I like option one myself.

As for indy turn burning, I actually burn about 50 turns per run raising defenses. At this point, I think my defences are raised all the way to the end of the round. For the rest, I forage which actually has decent returns for a skiff masser (as in I usually don't lose food in a run, although i rarely gain). Moral is that indiers need a way to burn their turns, too. Once again, though, FAF has a possible solution: a "produce troops" in the turns menu. Using this increases troop production 25% there. That is way too high for this game, but a 10% boost might be reasonable. It would also give indiers something that would be comparable to the "capture" attack.

[wolf bite]

The money going to the Cluny's hut is not a bad idea.  But understand that right now the max allowed in Cluny's hut is 10 times your net worth.  This is so that a person can not pile up a ton of money in an unseen place.  If you have more than the max, each "game day" some of it vanishes until it reduces back to ten times.

So what has happened was:

We invented new races
But the fox was not used.

We increased the fox's supper power
Still no one used the fox.

We changed the market to make the fox more attractive
Then people used the market to steal money.

Now we change that the money goes to clancy's hut
But the money will disappear over a short time

So we change it so that money in Cluny's hut will go to cash on hand instead of vanishing
But then the new strategy will be to put a 7.5 million of food on the market, have a friend buy it all, then make your 450 turn run with 150 billion cash in Clancy's Hut. Depending on your size, you will make about 3% interest each turn. With compounding interest you will have made 89,710,313,000,000,000!!!!!

So then we will need to program something to keep that from happening, and so on ...


Meanwhile we are losing 1 new player per day.  My conversation is on foresight.


Wolf Bite

[Peace Alliance]

Alright.

Now here's what /actually/ happened:

There was only 1 workable race

Now there are 8 workable races

The foxes supper power wasn't changed... as thats exactly how i originally designed it

we fixed the market, putting a stop to the unbeatable food-market-storage strat

now the market theft issue is more apparent

So we make it so that the money gets stored in cluny's hut.



BTW, cluny's hut does /not/ remove excess money every game day, it removes it when you use a turn.

My solution involving cluny's hut would be to make it so that the money made when stuff gets sold on the market go to cluny's hut, when a player takes their first turn, anything over the 10x max you can have in cluny's hut gets put into your actual coffers. This isn't a change so much as an adjustment.

[Shadow]

The money going to the Cluny's hut is not a bad idea.  But understand that right now the max allowed in Cluny's hut is 10 times your net worth.  This is so that a person can not pile up a ton of money in an unseen place.  If you have more than the max, each "game day" some of it vanishes until it reduces back to ten times.

Solution: get rid of the cap. All cash from market sales is piled into Cluny's Hut. While you are not using turns (not online), 5% (random number) of the surplus cash goes from cluny's hut into the stockpile on your account each hour, stealable for all. When you start taking turns, the extra surplus that has not yet leaked onto your account disappears as per usual.

What this will do is make it so that someone can buy all the food from the market, but they will have to wait several hours before enough cash has leaked out to make stealing it back worthwhile. This means that it will be a two person takedown that takes place over close to 24 hours rather than a 5 minute ruin, and the defender has a chance to log in in the waiting period to put up a defense.

[windhound]

Um.  No.
Leaking market is a strange and unwieldy idea, and it doesnt really stop market theft
Most people log into their reg account one every few days, so even if its a few hours before the cash appears in their account the attacker still knows its going to be there and the defender has no idea that his/her stuff has been bought
The attacker only has to remember to login again a few hours later and steal.  If they did their attack at say 1 am then came back at 8am  a good portion of the cash would have leaked and there's a very good chance the defender wouldnt have logged in

The simplest is to get rid of the bank deleting money.  It shouldnt do this anyways.
Have the bank only give its % when the cash in the account is below the cap (a very simple fix...  infact, I believe it already does this).  This way even if billions are added when stuff is bought off the market, it doesnt effect anything. 

Yes, you could have a friend buy your goods and have a ton of cash safe in the bank (not getting interest though).  I'm guessing thats the issue a Leaking market was designed to fix...  and I'm not sure I have an answer to it.  Will think about it.

Ofcourse.  This all makes the market exceptionally safe, too safe imo
You dont lose any net to have perfectly safe storage of your food

Building off ideas I've heard before -
If market theft is eliminated, we need to have some sort of deterioration of the food.  After a week the food starts to go 'bad,' losing .1% per hour.  Roughly 1.2% per day, 8.4% per week.  This will encourage people to set reasonable prices so that it might sell before going 'bad,' and they have certain profits from it

This is not needed for troops, because the number of troops you can store is already limited.
However, I wouldnt mind seeing a slight tax for keeping an army on the market. 
Given they're not marching off to war, but sitting in stalls waiting for buyers, they wont use as many resources... 
But maybe have them use 1/4 the resources they would normally use.  So if they'd normally consume 100 cash and 10 food per turn they'd instead consume 25 cash and 2.5 food

These two things may help put a damper on market storage.  Its still profitable to keep your troops there, but only safe to store your food for a week

[Peace Alliance]

well i've always wanted to raise merc prices, and lower PM prices, that way you can store things up there... but you'll risk it actually being BOUGHT! *shocking*

[pippin the mighty]

If you raise merc prices, that means they can sell for more?

[wolf bite]

I think that despite some minor disagreements, there are some things everyone does agree on:

That almost any change to the game has effects to other parts of the game because everything in intertwined.

That hours of reprogramming now must be done to fix the other problems the new market has caused.

That we have learned to use foresight before making those changes to hope not to ill effect something else.

That the problems the new market has caused are major enough to give it priority over fixes that were more important than what the market was intended to originally fix.

I hope that eventually we can get to the top list of priorities which most of them have been waiting for over a year:



-Fix bugs that are lingering around.
-Get the help files up (thanks windy).
-Make changes to simplify and de-clutter the game (remove things we don't use, minimize advanced operations).
-Update to the Wolf Bite's Journal 2.0, which is now only one year out of date.
-Implement the tutorial.
-Put the tips back in.
-Make adjustments to the default setting.
-Make changes to things that are not working right now


Wolf Bite

[lonewolf1817]

OK so seeing as how i seem to be the most recten topic of this debat ill put in my 2 cents.

i feel that the attack... well definatly not benifical to me, it is a effecitve way to keep people from doing what i did.
if you where to put a system in place like sugested it would make it next to near imposible to steal market items from a leader strat. witch i wouldnt mind.... but the game would turn toward more independent stock pile strats. while the way the game is in place now its more group strat freindly... and thats a better way to go at this point seeing as how its more newb inviting.



quick newb question. whats the point of raise defences?

[wolf bite]

What raise defenses does is reduce the amount leaders can steal or poison from your from 3% each time down to 1% each time.  Had we had a working game guide you would have known and this would not have happened to you.

Also understand that whether you think stealing is good or bad is not the point.  The thing is that someone that knows how to play with 100% huts is almost immune from being stolen from. 

Thus people are not stopped from doing what you did, but people with all leaders can do it endlessly while keeping their net worth.  It will be almost impossible to take down an emperor that has all huts, and most of their net in food on the market.

The idea is that we want to even out the game, not allow the already overpowered leaders to be able to do something that the non leader players can't.  There must be some benefit to not playing leaders or it will be the only strategy used. 


Wolf Bite

[lonewolf1817]

i was basicly imunnie to ppls touching me but i just got my internet turned on at my new place. and ive been living here the last 2 weeks so ive be kinda venerable