Does Bush Suck?

[Gen. Volkov]

PA, I just have one question for you. You want us involved in the world right? An isolationist America would be a disaster. You want us to help. So we do. And then something like the 9/11 happens to us for it. We could 1 of two things, stay involved with the world, which means retaliation, or withdraw into a shell. So this is my question, which do you want? An America that's involved in the world, trying to help, or an isolationist one who wants nothing to do with the rest of the world? You can't have your cake and eat it too. (Metaphor, I know, literally, you can, but lay off) That's why we are in Iraq. The reasons at the time were valid. Not finding the WMD's doesn't make it invalid. It just means we were wrong. Its still not a BAD thing that we are in Iraq, its not GREAT, but its not horrible. We have lost less troops there than we ever have in any war before it, INCLUDING Desert Storm. Saddam is no longer in power, and they are on their way to democracy. The militants are being stupid, but that's because they don't want us interupting there little games at who is king of the anthill. So again, do want us involved, or do you want us to go home? Make your choice.

[Peace Alliance]

sorry, didn't intend to have to back up the fact that planes dropped bombs on iraq with facts... didn't think i'd have to look through resources to where bush said for a fact that there were WMD's in iraq with statements where he admits he was wrong... like i said there is plenty of "excuses" for what he did, but i don't think he deserves such excuses.

how do i know he doesn't care about the rest of the world? he pushes the UN around like he's in charge... every time something is raised the US has to have it their way. i don't have anywhere to find facts on that ('specially without lookin...). I do recall some facts i read for my debate in law class last year about how he stopped sending condoms to africa and cut of other 3rd world support.

Barkclaw2 Sadam did NOT fly a plane into the twin towers. Nor did he have anything to do with it... where on earth did you get that idea?

Volkov... I don't really want the US involved with the world... to be honest, i don't think the US government could redeem itself after what it has done, at least not isntantly. Why doesn't the US government just do what it does with every other issue it can't deal with properly, and hire out to private organisations?

(i'm tired, didn't read all your posts, excuse my laziness... i just wanted to post what i know and wasn't rally planning on arguing it... )

[wolf bite]

Again, it is so much easier to make points when you only repeat the twisted words of others. Lets go through this one too. Kind of fun for me.

sorry, didn't intend to have to back up the fact that planes dropped bombs on iraq with facts
Yes it is a war and people drop bombs in war. But simply that bombs were dropped does not make the war wrong nor the commander a murder.

? where bush said for a fact that there were WMD's in Iraq with statements where he admits he was wrong.
Not true. He did not say there are none, just that we can?t find any. They could have been moved or buried, we don?t know. What we do know for a FACT is that Sodom himself gave his son the funding to buy them and all the leaders in Iraq thought the son did buy them. I don?t recall Bush admitting that he was wrong, since he acted on the same information that Sodom had. The person that is probably the most surprised we can?t find WMD is Sodom, since he paid for them.

BUT then the WMD was not alone the reason for this war. If someone breaks into my house and I think he has a baseball bat, a knife, and a gun. Then we can?t find the gun. I still had the rights to kill the guy. I listed one perfectly good reason for the war above, why keep going back to a minor issue?

he pushes the UN around like he's in charge.
Have you not read the debates in the UMD forum about the wide spread embezzlement from those that run the UN? I think we should close it.

? he stopped sending condoms to Africa ?
Who cares! It is not my tax money that should be spent for what other countries don?t spend because the rulers of that country keep all the money. Besides, have you thought that maybe there are other factors? I hear all the time about a senator that voted no against some obviously right bill. But then you research to find that the right part of the bill was only 10% of the bill and the other 90% was wrong. It is called partial facts.

i don't think the US government could redeem itself after what it has done, at least not instantly.
Depends what harm you think was done. I, and a very good percentage of the USA blame the news for reporting the bias way it does for their own political viewpoint with no care what long term damage it will do to this country.

Long ago there was respect for the President. Even one in a wheel chair was never reported in the news and no pictures were taken of his weakness. Do you know that the plans for D-Day was known by the news, but they never reported the biggest scoop of the decade because it could put our boys in harms way?

Really not intending to make this personal, but you just said something important. You don?t even want to read what people wrote because it may conflict what you have heard. So just keep reading only the headlines. Trust the democratic and American hating reporters for their view. Read only the web sights that you agree with. Keep harping on minor issues.

Here in California, the state is really messed up by the past governors. Arnold but some completely logical things on the ballet to help fix it up. The other side, who are robbing this state the way it is, spent more money in this state for TV ads then Kerry spent for his nation wide campaign for President! The TV spots were outright lies that made statements that had nothing even to do with the issues. I felt like moving out of this state when all for measures lost because people voted only based on the ads and never read what they were about.


Wolf Bite
Edit:forgot to slanty Peace's words--WB

[Ereptor]

First to barkclaw.? Those ungrateful iraqi citizens that you were talking about DON'T IGSIST!? ?I just had an uncle come back from iraq.? He is in his late 40s and he is a doctor.? He went in as a veteran because he wanted to serve his country, again.? His recollections of the iraqi people are far from ungrateful.? And this past week is total TOTAL PROOF.? They voted, and in mass numbers without any major attacks.? I say God Bless Iraq and the Iraqi people.? And i am sure they are thanking their God in there way for what is being done.

Now for peace.? Peace i could do what wolf is doing and combat each and every one of your statements.? But i am not going to.? For one wolf as already said what needs to be said on those issues.? Second if you ever get into an argument without preparing to defend yourself you will continue to look foolish.? this will continue until you bring facts.? Not everyone in the united states runs on the fuel of emotion.? For that is why i believe the media has such a presence.? "The death toll for american soldiers rose to 1006 today."? Oh no, over a 1000 of our troops have died!!!? That is to much.? We need to get outa there.? -----? I gota space my response from those thoughts.? Makes me shudder.? Number one.? ?Those are volunteers that are fighting for FREEDOM.? This is what brings me to my next point.? The real reason we are in iraq.? The real reason we went to Vietnam, South Korea, Dessert Storm, and all the engagements we have seen since WWII.?

If you know anything about WWII and even if you dont.? You know that obviously the world went to war and the end result resulted in the production of WMDS.? Through these were later invented, civilization killers, the WMDS we know today.? This is the day and age we live in.? I like many of you woke up to the news of the second Pearl Harbor on September 11th 2001.? This was the dawning of a new war.? ?A war unlike WWII and unlike the Cold War.? This war is to be fought on fronts far away from the soil of the United States.? For those of you who think we shouldn't be there and think we are the World Police i will next explain my reasoning for "Policing the World" as the left likes to call it.

In a psych hospital ward where i worked for over a year we had situations that required "shutdown".? This means we lock and close all doors around the unit when certain activity was happening.? I will give you a situation.? A 250 lb black girl who has a history of delusions and schizophrenia behavior comes out of the elevator into the unit after causing a disturbance in the gym.? She then starts to plead her innocence to people shes pass why she is escorted into a safe area for her to calm down and try to regain control.? The people she passes look at her.? I cant tell you what goes on in their heads.? ?But when you have worked there long enough you can feel it coming on.? The kids start to stand up and argue.? As soon as that happens the staff will make eye contact with each other that they think a lock down may need to happen.? We then begin to lock down doors prevent the entire unit from accessing each other.? Because if we dont, and this has happened before.? Multiple fights with staff and other peers, sex, theft, and many other things may happen.? Other patients start to go manic or aggressive without any reason after a nice day.? To make it simple, it spreads, like wildfire sometimes and containing it and focusing on the patient that is in the most duress and dealing with them one on one is the best way to deal with it.

Now look at the world, with its dictators, tyrants and terrorists.? They feed off each other.? If one goes and attacks another country, the other somehow is given more audacity to go and try to do it himself or they may just sit and watch with curious eyes to see what happens.? Then hear comes the United States founded on mans rights for freedom, free choice and overall human dignity.? We dont fight other peoples battles, we are fighting our own.? To protect the human spirit, the human right to chose life instead of death and we are paying the ultimate price.? We go in and stop saddam for invading a TOTALLY INNOCENT country.? Or did many of you forget that this dictator has already attacked before, already acted out.? The United States cant close the doors of the psych ward and a work on saddam one on one in a quiet area.? No we cant.? We have to do it in front of the world while the other dictators and tyrants look on.? While our own media blames us for killing innocent people, while other countries sit and watch as we defend innocent people.? We are doing it the hard way and the right way.? We are fighting a war on Terror.? And this war is just, right and stands for every person that wants the basic human rights.? More personally we are fighting for our own freedom.? Because if the saddams of the world were left to doing what they wanted we would be living a in chaotic mess.? North Korea would have finished up the South by now.? Mass murdering ( mass i mean millions )? would continue in isolated parts of Europe.? The dictators and terrorists would grow and gain ground.? And it would be too late again for America to enter the war, just like it was too late on Dec 7th.?

The war is being fought out there today for us.? For our kids and our grandkids.? To not live in fear of nuclear attacks, deranged dictators and extremist terrorists.? It is being fought for the ideology of the free man.? It is again a just and righteous war and one that if it is not fought will result in us losing what we hold close to our hearts.? Our freedom and the freedom of our fellow man.? I thank the men and women of United States armed forces right up to the president and right down to the private for going and doing this courageous thing and preserving our freedoms.

[Peace Alliance]

Was Iraq a happy fun-loving friend of the world before the war? Of course not... but is seria? egypt? north korea? Is it up to our glorious american freedom fighters to invade all the nations in the world who aren't "pure" to american eyes? How come a nation that isn't willing to spend a penny sending condoms to africa is willing to spend billions to send people over to foriegn nations to die? And lets think for a second about the kind of people who get sent over. Rich kids? no way, its mostly kids who couldn't afford schooling unless they joined the army. Sure they're volinteering, but what other options do they have?

[Ereptor]

Your saying our guys are fighting in iraq because they had no other options?? Thats absurd.? That is one of the most close minded comments i have ever heard.? Americans dont know how good you have it.? Maybe in a third world country ( ive been to a few ) you have two options.? But here in the states you have more like 200.? Dont give me that "no option" bs.? And aside from solving the worlds problems.? Dont worry peace we are taking it one step at a time.? First threats first.? Besides we wouldnt have condoms to produce if we didnt have America.? Let our government worry about protecting our country, so then we can have people like you who raise money in a safe america to send it to people that are needy.? I.E. Africans, Samolians, etc.? And distant uncle of mine just sent $100k cash to the earth quake victoms in pakistan.? And only in america do people like that make fortunes and send it away to needy people.  Pretty good country to fight for in my honest opinion.  We are also basically one of the only countries that its people ( average everyday citizens ) raise money in the amounts we do for other countries that are poorer.


BTW i just mentioned in the above post about my uncle who just got back from iraq.? He is not poor, young or looking for college money.? He was a Doctor ( Surgeon ), Veteran, and a father of two.?

[Peace Alliance]

"one threat at a time" Scarey words in my opinion. the US had no business in Iraq, and it will not in any other troubled nation unless they are TRUELY in danger.

[Ereptor]

"Truely in danger"? Scariest words i have ever read.

First who is they?? If it is iraqies i dont think i need to argue they they were in danger everyday.? If it is us than i thank God that people that have that viewpoint arent leading our military and intelligence programs.? Because the only we to convince you that we are in danger is for us to get attacked, again.

News flash:? Clinton wins another four years!

News flash:? Chicago gets nuked.? Saddam suspected.? Iraq Denies any involvment.? Iraq invades Neighboring Kuait again.

Conversation...between average Joe and Bob

Joe Kennedy: Hey look chicago got nuked.?

Bob Kerry:? Well I guess it is about time to go into iraq and invade.?

Joe Kennedy:? Oh crap we have to get a UN resolution to do that first.? Darnit.? What if Iraq doesnt have any nukes?
?
Bob Kerry:? Then how did they nuke us??

Joe Kennedy:? Just because we got nuked doesnt mean Saddam did it.? We have no proof except that intelligence warned us that he was buying products to assemble one last year.? That doesnt mean he did and then shot us.?

Bob Kerry:? Ok well maybe invasion is to strong.? Lets shoot a bunch of cruise missles at them and destroy any buildings that are producing the WMD products.? Ha ha Lets see him try to make a WMD now.

Joe Kennedy:? Yea and by then the UN will send someone to investigate.? Not our problem now.

Bob Kerry:? Perfect.? Plus all the polls tell us that "The People" dont want another war.? Don't you love technology?

Joe Kennedy:? Yea.? Just because we got nuked doesnt mean we have to go invading iraq and killing more people.?

Bob Kerry:? Agreed.? Enough life was lost already.

Joe Kennedy:? Whew that was a close one.

[Gen. Volkov]

Ok, Ereptor, you're going just LITTLE overboard there. If someone nuked Chicago, any president, no matter who, would go to war. But a liberal one is less likely to do what Bush did.

Peace, if you don't want us involved in the world, then don't complain about what we are and aren't doing for it. The condoms shouldn't matter too you. YOu want us to go home, fine we will. But like I said, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

As to Iraq, I'm sure Saddam had WMD's. I don't know what happened to them, but he had already used them, both in his war with Iran, and against the Kurds. Gulf War Syndrome might be a result of his use of them too. So this is the analogy I use. You're in an alley, and have just fought off one assailant, and there are dark figures gathering around you, ready to spring on you should you fall. One steps foward with his hand in his pocket, and you don't know if he has a gun. You can't run, because that would show weakness, so you stirke out. Turns out, it was just his finger, but you didn't know it at the time. Was it wrong to go after him? In my opinion, no. And all the Democrats screaming about "Bush lied to us", are covering their butts, and pandering for votes. They were in total agreement at the start, especially since at that time going against it would have been career suicide. So don't listen to everything you here on the news.

[Ereptor]

Im glad you noticed i went overboard.  that was the point.  I hope other people realize that.  i just had to touch up the situation a little with nuking chicago

[Aqualis]

PEACE: Define "TRUELY in danger".